| FFP result with finances out. 07:34 - Feb 20 with 15461 views | Philothesuperhoop |
So does this mean that we’ve just snuck under the allowable FFP losses? Does anyone have the financial results and the ability to interpret them. I.e. know what losses can be deducted from the totals?
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| FFP result with finances out. on 13:06 - Feb 20 with 2935 views | stevec |
| FFP result with finances out. on 12:54 - Feb 20 by terryb |
Our financial year end is 31st May & contracts end 30th June. It does seem stupid to me that they don't coincide!
I think that a player could agree a transfer outside of the transfer window & although they can't be registered with their new club, the sale would be in this years accounts.
This is conjecture from me & not a definite! [Post edited 20 Feb 13:03]
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Yes and usually if you’ve got a known projected sale early in the next financial year you can ask that some of it should be apportioned to the present financial years accounts.
That happens very rarely in business but most businesses don’t have to navigate FFP! |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:08 - Feb 20 with 2913 views | DavieQPR |
| FFP result with finances out. on 12:54 - Feb 20 by terryb |
Our financial year end is 31st May & contracts end 30th June. It does seem stupid to me that they don't coincide!
I think that a player could agree a transfer outside of the transfer window & although they can't be registered with their new club, the sale would be in this years accounts.
This is conjecture from me & not a definite! [Post edited 20 Feb 13:03]
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There wouldn't be a sale. Contracts and registration could not take place.Only a verbal agreement can take place outside Transfer Window. |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:10 - Feb 20 with 2897 views | Superhoops2808 |
| FFP result with finances out. on 12:06 - Feb 20 by kensalriser |
Do you mean £10m in total for those four? |
Glad you asked the question... Beat me to it
Nearly choked on my lunch when I read the OP |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:12 - Feb 20 with 2886 views | Hunterhoop |
| FFP result with finances out. on 12:54 - Feb 20 by terryb |
Our financial year end is 31st May & contracts end 30th June. It does seem stupid to me that they don't coincide!
I think that a player could agree a transfer outside of the transfer window & although they can't be registered with their new club, the sale would be in this years accounts.
This is conjecture from me & not a definite! [Post edited 20 Feb 13:03]
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Weird. Thanks for clarifying.
I do not think we’ve found the 10m or more more (depending on disallowable cost) to maintain compliance this season based on what we’ve done to date. The net impact on salaries out of the door vs brought in can’t be 10m on a full staff costs base of 23.7m. It can’t. We haven’t done enough. Dieng and Dickie brought in, what? £3m in total, generously. Have we take +7m out of the wage bill from last season to this? Again, don’t see it. We had to pay up some of Johansen remember so that isn’t a a full salary off the books. Someone on 10k per week is only half a million a year. We have net lost 14 of those from last year.
I think there has to be another sale or something funky planned on incomes somewhere to get us to be compliant this season.
If we do somehow meet FFP this season, then Marti actually has some serious wiggle room this summer, because that big Warburton loss season drops out. |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:17 - Feb 20 with 2806 views | Hunterhoop |
| FFP result with finances out. on 10:08 - Feb 20 by JamesB1979 |
Well Millwall had 155 in their last set of accounts. But it’s also more that if you are close to the FFP line, you’ve got to reduce cost. Biggest cost is people and to reduce people by 2 doesn’t seem like much of a cost reduction. |
Agree. It’s a pretty dreadful performance from Hoos there. Asleep at the wheel. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:21 - Feb 20 with 2777 views | Hunterhoop |
We won’t. We’ll meet FFP…just.
49m losses over 3 years before you deduct disallowable costs. These are estimated for us to be between 3-5m p.a. over those 3 years. We’ll squeeze in.
The problem is this year, where we could certainly breach, but no one will know until this time next year. So we need to be comfortably clear of the bottom 3 in Feb/March 2025. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:22 - Feb 20 with 2767 views | Rangersw12 |
What are they on about 😂 |  | | |
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| FFP result with finances out. on 13:34 - Feb 20 with 2653 views | 1JD |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:12 - Feb 20 by Hunterhoop |
Weird. Thanks for clarifying.
I do not think we’ve found the 10m or more more (depending on disallowable cost) to maintain compliance this season based on what we’ve done to date. The net impact on salaries out of the door vs brought in can’t be 10m on a full staff costs base of 23.7m. It can’t. We haven’t done enough. Dieng and Dickie brought in, what? £3m in total, generously. Have we take +7m out of the wage bill from last season to this? Again, don’t see it. We had to pay up some of Johansen remember so that isn’t a a full salary off the books. Someone on 10k per week is only half a million a year. We have net lost 14 of those from last year.
I think there has to be another sale or something funky planned on incomes somewhere to get us to be compliant this season.
If we do somehow meet FFP this season, then Marti actually has some serious wiggle room this summer, because that big Warburton loss season drops out. |
Wage reductions from last season to this are considerable;
- Owens 2.5k
- Alfa 2.5k
- shodipo 5k
- Masterson 5k
- Thomas 5k
- Dieng 5k
- Dickie 10k
- Amos 10k
- Balogun 10k
- Bonne 10k
- Laird 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Tim 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Roberts 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Johansen 20k
The above totals amount to 130k per week, or a nearly 7m reduction in our annual wage bill. These are rough figures for sure - I’d imagine some will be on more, others less - but it largely cancels out and helps provide an estimate of savings.
We seem to be close to 7m in wage savings plus 2m in sales - Dieng and Dickie = 9m. But if we also factor in the 1m rental saving, from being at Heston again for the coming season, we could be close to a 10m saving. Of course this doesn’t factor in the new additions this year, but all have come in on a strict budget, so the club know exactly what they are working towards, and that has always been the key point that has often been overlooked.
I disagreed with your breach assertion last time on this topic, for the 22/23 accounts just posted, which seems to have come to no avail, and I disagreed on a further breach once this seasons 23/24 accounts are out. I said at the time I had confidence the club could and would shave off most of the 10m rumoured deficit needed in 23/24 through wage cost reductions alone. Calculations above support that and I remain confident all is above board, albeit close to the line, as we all knew and expected.
Expecting Chair to go this summer also, for the simple reason he needs to be sold at aged 26, and with 2 years left of contract, to maximise the asset value. But not sure the money is desperately needed for FFP reasons. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:38 - Feb 20 with 2603 views | BostonR |
Really good news and it seems it has been reasonably well managed. Any idea as to whether any Championship clubs are going to fail FFP? |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:43 - Feb 20 with 2521 views | Nov77 |
Les and Hoos off the wage bill now, presumably the new CEO is on some sort of youth training scheme deal.
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| FFP result with finances out. on 13:44 - Feb 20 with 2491 views | Wegerles_Stairs |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:34 - Feb 20 by 1JD |
Wage reductions from last season to this are considerable;
- Owens 2.5k
- Alfa 2.5k
- shodipo 5k
- Masterson 5k
- Thomas 5k
- Dieng 5k
- Dickie 10k
- Amos 10k
- Balogun 10k
- Bonne 10k
- Laird 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Tim 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Roberts 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Johansen 20k
The above totals amount to 130k per week, or a nearly 7m reduction in our annual wage bill. These are rough figures for sure - I’d imagine some will be on more, others less - but it largely cancels out and helps provide an estimate of savings.
We seem to be close to 7m in wage savings plus 2m in sales - Dieng and Dickie = 9m. But if we also factor in the 1m rental saving, from being at Heston again for the coming season, we could be close to a 10m saving. Of course this doesn’t factor in the new additions this year, but all have come in on a strict budget, so the club know exactly what they are working towards, and that has always been the key point that has often been overlooked.
I disagreed with your breach assertion last time on this topic, for the 22/23 accounts just posted, which seems to have come to no avail, and I disagreed on a further breach once this seasons 23/24 accounts are out. I said at the time I had confidence the club could and would shave off most of the 10m rumoured deficit needed in 23/24 through wage cost reductions alone. Calculations above support that and I remain confident all is above board, albeit close to the line, as we all knew and expected.
Expecting Chair to go this summer also, for the simple reason he needs to be sold at aged 26, and with 2 years left of contract, to maximise the asset value. But not sure the money is desperately needed for FFP reasons. |
Mad how much money that is on so little output. I get that not every signing is going to work out but Jesus, that really is an eye-opener in terms of meaningful contributions. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:44 - Feb 20 with 2486 views | Benny_the_Ball |
Frankly, given that we don't know the allowable expenses for 2022-23 or the accounts for 2023-24 (whether standard or FFP), we're all guesstimating.
The only conclusion we can reasonably draw is that the club is sailing close to the FFP wind. The raft of sponsorship deals handed out this season suggests that the club has been monitoring this closely.
We can only hope that the club has done enough to keep its financial nose above water. What we can do as supporters is continue to back the team in its quest for survival as relegation to League 1 will seriously dent future accounts. |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:54 - Feb 20 with 2390 views | Hunterhoop |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:34 - Feb 20 by 1JD |
Wage reductions from last season to this are considerable;
- Owens 2.5k
- Alfa 2.5k
- shodipo 5k
- Masterson 5k
- Thomas 5k
- Dieng 5k
- Dickie 10k
- Amos 10k
- Balogun 10k
- Bonne 10k
- Laird 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Tim 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Roberts 15k (50% of 30k prem wage contribution)
- Johansen 20k
The above totals amount to 130k per week, or a nearly 7m reduction in our annual wage bill. These are rough figures for sure - I’d imagine some will be on more, others less - but it largely cancels out and helps provide an estimate of savings.
We seem to be close to 7m in wage savings plus 2m in sales - Dieng and Dickie = 9m. But if we also factor in the 1m rental saving, from being at Heston again for the coming season, we could be close to a 10m saving. Of course this doesn’t factor in the new additions this year, but all have come in on a strict budget, so the club know exactly what they are working towards, and that has always been the key point that has often been overlooked.
I disagreed with your breach assertion last time on this topic, for the 22/23 accounts just posted, which seems to have come to no avail, and I disagreed on a further breach once this seasons 23/24 accounts are out. I said at the time I had confidence the club could and would shave off most of the 10m rumoured deficit needed in 23/24 through wage cost reductions alone. Calculations above support that and I remain confident all is above board, albeit close to the line, as we all knew and expected.
Expecting Chair to go this summer also, for the simple reason he needs to be sold at aged 26, and with 2 years left of contract, to maximise the asset value. But not sure the money is desperately needed for FFP reasons. |
That all fails to apply any forecast for the players brought in at first team or development squad level, so they are your projected gross savings not net savings. We are paying those players something. Even if it’s only 30k per week (which Smyth, Cook, Colback, Begovic, Cannon, and Fox for a full season, plus the peanuts on Hayden, Hodge, and Fra are on for half a season, seems hugely optimistic) that’s 1.5m off your saving, which you have conveniently rounded from 6.7 to 7m. Assuming the over, you’re back to 5.1m, plus Dickie and Dieng. That’s why I think we’re short as we stand, which even your estimates confirm.
Secondly, we know we had to pay Johansen off, so halve the saving as in all likelihood we paid half his wages to save the other half. That would be another 0.5m shortfall. 4.6m plus Dickie and Dieng sales.
Also, to be clear here, I said a breach last season was possible not certain. You were adamant we had saved loads last year and we’re easily under. We’ll meet FFP, just. But our operating costs haven’t improved much (not as you said) and the end FFP position will be very tight. So my caution here was pretty valid. To make out otherwise is a little disingenuous.
Yet again, your assessment is we’ll be fine this year. I hope so. But I think it’s going to be extremely tight, and personally don’t think we have yet done enough to make up that 10m (or more) required as I have outlined above. There might be some wins on sponsorship, some back office salaries, and potentially another sale, but it is still a big risk we miss. [Post edited 20 Feb 13:58]
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| FFP result with finances out. on 14:04 - Feb 20 with 2295 views | R_from_afar |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:06 - Feb 20 by stevec |
Yes and usually if you’ve got a known projected sale early in the next financial year you can ask that some of it should be apportioned to the present financial years accounts.
That happens very rarely in business but most businesses don’t have to navigate FFP! |
Sorry, I'm not legally trained but I believe that what you suggested is illegal.
A few years back, I joined a huge company which had just been caught massaging their earnings announcements by including sales which fell just outside the reporting period.
The company was convicted and made subject to a deferred prosecution agreement, directors were imprisoned and employees were forbidden from deleting any e-mails while the investigation was ongoing. It was an incredibly serious matter. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| FFP result with finances out. on 14:18 - Feb 20 with 2204 views | Hunterhoop |
Tesco were done for bringing forward and accounting supplier rebates early years back. It was artificially propping up the profit, and when caught and corrected they saw a one year hit which sent their profits backwards significantly. Believe they received a hefty fine too.
Does the transfer window not open again before 31st May?
If so, we are going to be incredibly tight.
I wonder if Hoos, in his Chairman’s role, isn’t taking a salary and his financial reward is tied to any investment we receive. That would help. I would imagine Nourry is on less than Les. That’ll help too. Still short though. The sponsorship stuff wasn’t that big though and a big chunk went on Ainsworth’s pay out. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:24 - Feb 20 with 2143 views | 1JD |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:54 - Feb 20 by Hunterhoop |
That all fails to apply any forecast for the players brought in at first team or development squad level, so they are your projected gross savings not net savings. We are paying those players something. Even if it’s only 30k per week (which Smyth, Cook, Colback, Begovic, Cannon, and Fox for a full season, plus the peanuts on Hayden, Hodge, and Fra are on for half a season, seems hugely optimistic) that’s 1.5m off your saving, which you have conveniently rounded from 6.7 to 7m. Assuming the over, you’re back to 5.1m, plus Dickie and Dieng. That’s why I think we’re short as we stand, which even your estimates confirm.
Secondly, we know we had to pay Johansen off, so halve the saving as in all likelihood we paid half his wages to save the other half. That would be another 0.5m shortfall. 4.6m plus Dickie and Dieng sales.
Also, to be clear here, I said a breach last season was possible not certain. You were adamant we had saved loads last year and we’re easily under. We’ll meet FFP, just. But our operating costs haven’t improved much (not as you said) and the end FFP position will be very tight. So my caution here was pretty valid. To make out otherwise is a little disingenuous.
Yet again, your assessment is we’ll be fine this year. I hope so. But I think it’s going to be extremely tight, and personally don’t think we have yet done enough to make up that 10m (or more) required as I have outlined above. There might be some wins on sponsorship, some back office salaries, and potentially another sale, but it is still a big risk we miss. [Post edited 20 Feb 13:58]
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I didn't do the net on the basis the club know exactly what they are working towards. Find it hard to believe the club bought in players this summer, if it would push them over the line for a breach. So I find it hard to follow your logic. I was just trying to demonstrate a significant reduction in wages from last season has been a major positive in rebalancing our financial position.
That said, we can run simple figures to counter the incomings. Ferdinands salary was rumoured to be 1m. Then we have further reductions likewise from Hoos and Ramsay mid-season. Could easily amount to 2m saved, and cover any wage incomings for Begovic, Cook, etc. As for dev squad, it was pretty much cut in half in the summer. We had nearly 40 players on the books, and now have 19.
p.s. if you actually look back at your comments you will see that you were pretty adamant we had breached multiple times! “We have already breached FFP: 19/20, 20/21, 21/22. It’s down. We’re over £39m losses in that period".
Anyway, good news. But all of this amounts to nothing if we don't stay up. No pressure! | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:28 - Feb 20 with 2106 views | daveB |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:18 - Feb 20 by Hunterhoop |
Tesco were done for bringing forward and accounting supplier rebates early years back. It was artificially propping up the profit, and when caught and corrected they saw a one year hit which sent their profits backwards significantly. Believe they received a hefty fine too.
Does the transfer window not open again before 31st May?
If so, we are going to be incredibly tight.
I wonder if Hoos, in his Chairman’s role, isn’t taking a salary and his financial reward is tied to any investment we receive. That would help. I would imagine Nourry is on less than Les. That’ll help too. Still short though. The sponsorship stuff wasn’t that big though and a big chunk went on Ainsworth’s pay out. |
Transfer window opens in June usually a week after Champions League Final so if we do sell Chair it's unlikely to be in this years accounts |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:32 - Feb 20 with 2065 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| FFP result with finances out. on 13:54 - Feb 20 by Hunterhoop |
That all fails to apply any forecast for the players brought in at first team or development squad level, so they are your projected gross savings not net savings. We are paying those players something. Even if it’s only 30k per week (which Smyth, Cook, Colback, Begovic, Cannon, and Fox for a full season, plus the peanuts on Hayden, Hodge, and Fra are on for half a season, seems hugely optimistic) that’s 1.5m off your saving, which you have conveniently rounded from 6.7 to 7m. Assuming the over, you’re back to 5.1m, plus Dickie and Dieng. That’s why I think we’re short as we stand, which even your estimates confirm.
Secondly, we know we had to pay Johansen off, so halve the saving as in all likelihood we paid half his wages to save the other half. That would be another 0.5m shortfall. 4.6m plus Dickie and Dieng sales.
Also, to be clear here, I said a breach last season was possible not certain. You were adamant we had saved loads last year and we’re easily under. We’ll meet FFP, just. But our operating costs haven’t improved much (not as you said) and the end FFP position will be very tight. So my caution here was pretty valid. To make out otherwise is a little disingenuous.
Yet again, your assessment is we’ll be fine this year. I hope so. But I think it’s going to be extremely tight, and personally don’t think we have yet done enough to make up that 10m (or more) required as I have outlined above. There might be some wins on sponsorship, some back office salaries, and potentially another sale, but it is still a big risk we miss. [Post edited 20 Feb 13:58]
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Whilst you're right to be cautious and I agree that the FFP position will be tight, some folk are still confusing the latest set of company accounts with FFP accounts. To arrive at the latter still requires a significant amount of guesswork.
What we can do is look at the previous seasons for context. Based on KM's tweet, between 2020 and 2022 QPR made a combined operating loss of £63.3m. However, it still managed to meet the FFP limit of £39m. This suggests that at least £24.3m was disallowed for FFP purposes. The latest announcement means that between 2021 and 2023 QPR made a combined operating loss of £67.3m. How much of this is disallowable remains to be seen.
I look forward to Simon's annual analysis in March to clarify matters. However, even he will have to make some assumptions in his calculations. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:54 - Feb 20 with 1913 views | cpgerber |
We could of course sell Chair to a club in a league that doesn't have a transfer window that open opens in June.
Saudi? MLS maybe? China??
Point is, I think a transfer is limited to the league the buying club is operating in, not the selling club, right? |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:00 - Feb 20 with 1836 views | Northernr |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:54 - Feb 20 by cpgerber |
We could of course sell Chair to a club in a league that doesn't have a transfer window that open opens in June.
Saudi? MLS maybe? China??
Point is, I think a transfer is limited to the league the buying club is operating in, not the selling club, right? |
Presumably all dependent on the bloke he hit with the large stone in the queue for the bus at the kayaking weekend that worried the cat that killed the rat that lived in the house that Illy built not being a thing. |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:08 - Feb 20 with 1777 views | kensalriser |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:00 - Feb 20 by Northernr |
Presumably all dependent on the bloke he hit with the large stone in the queue for the bus at the kayaking weekend that worried the cat that killed the rat that lived in the house that Illy built not being a thing. |
That's all very well, but can we get back to the serious business of third party amateur accountancy please. |  |
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| FFP result with finances out. on 15:13 - Feb 20 with 1730 views | colinallcars |
They don't like us much do they ? |  | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:25 - Feb 20 with 1644 views | DavieQPR |
| FFP result with finances out. on 14:54 - Feb 20 by cpgerber |
We could of course sell Chair to a club in a league that doesn't have a transfer window that open opens in June.
Saudi? MLS maybe? China??
Point is, I think a transfer is limited to the league the buying club is operating in, not the selling club, right? |
MLS has a transfer window and China has stopped buying and very few foreign players are still there.
Personally I trust the club to know what it's doing and don't think there would have been as many as four players in if we couldn't have afforded it. | | | |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:35 - Feb 20 with 1571 views | MrSheen |
| FFP result with finances out. on 15:00 - Feb 20 by Northernr |
Presumably all dependent on the bloke he hit with the large stone in the queue for the bus at the kayaking weekend that worried the cat that killed the rat that lived in the house that Illy built not being a thing. |
Was he in the tunnel at Ashton Gate? |  | | |
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