| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT 22:17 - Aug 13 with 12884 views | TheResurrection |
Dr Winston posted this in another thread...
"""We pissed away gobsmacking amounts of money by moving away from a system that worked. Huw Jenkins presided over that act of stupidity when all he had to do was keep doing what worked. Instead he decided to tear all that up when he promoted his snitch to the managers job and ape what every other club was doing."""
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You'll get too many agreeing with this most simplistic of explanations.
And it's not fair or particularly accurate.
You say we moved away from a system that worked.
But for how long long in the EPL did we have that system?
* We were promoted in May 2011
* From August 2013 to January 2014 we struggle
* There were well documented upsets in the ranks
* We had a manager and his agent who attempted to manipulate our transfer policy to a model that would see them make on every deal
* THIS WAS A CLEAR STEP AWAY FROM WHAT COULD BE ARGUED WORKED FOR US UNTIL THIS POINT
* Garry Monk, who I know you blame for moving us away from our recruiting system stepped up in February 2014
* Monk steered us to safety
* In 2014/2015 Monk took us to our highest finish by GOING BACK TO THE MODEL THAT GOT US TO THE EPL IN THE FIRST PLACE - NOT THE PLAYING STYLE - BUT THE RECRUITMENT MODEL
Now had Leon, instead of Monk, been able and available to take the reigns at that time we would no doubt have seen a completely different playing style and type of player coming in.
But he wasn't available and Monk came in and in the eyes of the footballing world, the EPL finish we had, and obviously from the Board of Directors perspective, did a good job.
OK, we didn't like the style of play and we can all too easily say that's where it all went wrong, but it's such a weak argument in so many aspects it deserves being called out as rubbish.
* In the EPL we had one season under Rodgers who recruited as we did post Monk ie the transfer committee
+ we then had one and a half seasons with Laudrup who changed it to his way
+ we then had the rest going back with the transfer committee
If we moved away from anything it was to accommodate Laudrup's agent and that only brought success for ONE TRANSFER WINDOW..... ONE!!!
it really is now time for people to start evaluating our recent history and not just jump on bandwagons or choose the sound bites that match their own narratives just to confirm their own bias.
It's time to see things as they really were and now are. The blame game is doing us no favours. This is a great chance to rebuild and start again.
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:14 - Aug 15 with 1507 views | Ebo |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:29 - Aug 15 by Uxbridge |
Not sure if that's Chris' summary, but I think it would be inaccurate. Under Martinez, recruitment was overseen by Reeves, who was a Martinez man to the point he went to Wigan with him.
Sousa was a different animal who focused on the coaching side only and the recruitment side went elsewhere in the club. That didn't go as well.
Clearly the recruitment approach changed between Laudrup and Monk. Control was probably too far one way under Laudrup and there should be a consistent approach to recruitment, and it makes sense to have a separate and beefed up recruitment department, whatever the manager (as logically we'd recruit similar managers in terms of style of play). I don't believe for a second that Monk didn't have the final say on signings though.
The reasons for relegation are many though. Clearly we recruited baldy but that's not down to one reason. I don't think much of many of the recruits we brought in, but the circumstances at manager were not ideal. We signed a more physical, less technical type of player under Monk which saw us change the style of play. After that we constantly went into reactionary/damage limitation mode, changing manager mid season and having to react to a bad position in the January window.
Not that we didn't have chances to do things differently. The obvious one is why did we give Guidolin a new contract after he kept us up. It's hard to believe we'd be here now if Rodgers had got the gig. He was never going to be a long term option with his age and health. Clement looked to be the right sort but clearly turned out not to be.
It was the move away from the Plan A and the constant firefighting, rather than stop, undertake a proper review and figure out where we want to get to, that brings us here. The change in recruitment approach didn't do that, but it was another thing that didn't work... Not so much its existence, but its many many failures. Not without its successes of course. Andre Ayew would have been one if we hadn't brought him back. Thats not revisionism, said that at the time.
What we need now is joined up thinking. Have a plan for the playing side, make sure it's what we want as a club, and make sure management and recruitment are working together and making the right decisions. The players we've signed and looking to recruit look like the sort we'd have looked at back when we did things well, so that looks a good sign. Getting rid of so many of the squad is no bad thing so long as we bring in replacements who suit what we want to do. That's the gap at the moment, and the club have 2 weeks to give Potter the tools. This division isn't much, and it wouldn't take much to be at the top end of it. [Post edited 15 Aug 2018 9:31]
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"The reasons for relegation are many though. Clearly we recruited baldy "
So Shelvey was the mastermind behind our demise? |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:22 - Aug 15 with 1486 views | theloneranger |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 10:40 - Aug 15 by Uxbridge |
Course it isn't easy. Could have done everything right and still got relegated. Don't think we did though or have left ourselves in a good position either. Relegated teams are always poorly managed in some way. That's life, need to learn the lessons from your mistakes.
Think your memory is falling you on Reeves though. Originally a Flynn man but Martinez brought him back.
PS Enjoy Croatia. Looks absolutely stunning. One on the list in the near future.. |
Martinez brought back Kevin Reeves as Chief Scout.
Reeves' wife worked for Easy Jet, and he joked about all the discounted tickets she obtained for him when he flew to Spain on his scouting missions to the Spanish lower leagues. |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:03 - Aug 15 with 1445 views | Uxbridge |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:22 - Aug 15 by theloneranger |
Martinez brought back Kevin Reeves as Chief Scout.
Reeves' wife worked for Easy Jet, and he joked about all the discounted tickets she obtained for him when he flew to Spain on his scouting missions to the Spanish lower leagues. |
Exactly.
It's not so much that the manager is in control of the recruitment department, but they need to be working well together and there should be a consistent, coherent plan. We had one back then but in recent years that has been lacking. A positive is that we look to be getting closer to that now, although time will tell. |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 23:03 - Aug 15 with 1368 views | ItchySphincter |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 08:59 - Aug 15 by Dr_Winston |
Depends if you see a temporary Pulisesque boost of our league position as worth the vandalism of a style of play that had served us well for years. |
Not the point. |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:12 - Aug 16 with 1305 views | JackSomething |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 08:38 - Aug 15 by ItchySphincter |
Eighth is an improvement on ninth. It’s strange that an element of our fanbase could never accept that. It’s the Laudrup factor, nothing else.
Any league club could win the league cup, not many could finish eighth in the PL. The pro
Laudrup, anti Monk rhetoric is laughable. |
You're entitled to think that eighth is an improvement on ninth and a our first ever major trophy. Just as I'm entitled to think that's crazy.
Not to mention (as others have) the change in playing style and what it led to, the previous season was just far more enjoyable and had more memorable games for me.
Oh, and I'm not a Laudrup apologist. At the time, I argued it was the right decision to let him go and haven't changed my mind since. I think I disagreed with appointing Monk permanently in the summer without looking at alternatives, but could be wrong on that. I know you went back and forth with the Laudrup lovers like Icey and that loon Spratty, but I wasn't one of them. |  |
| You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocket ship underpants don't help. |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:44 - Aug 16 with 1279 views | TheResurrection |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 08:26 - Aug 15 by omarjack |
WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT
This has got to be one of the most intriguing sentences ever written in the English language.
I keep trying to understand it. But the more I try, the weirder it gets.
But from I can gather, he says that we didn't move from point A to B..we moved from point B to A. But at one point in the past, we've moved from A to B.
Only a genius like the Res can come up with such nauseating statement. By genius of course I meant a complete fool. |
You're just trying to be as hopeless as you always are.
Pathetic. | |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:46 - Aug 16 with 1276 views | TheResurrection |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:13 - Aug 15 by Chief |
Oh well.
Enjoy your holiday |
Well there's no edit sign there and it's clear to everyone what I wrote. And it's not what you quoted.
And thanks 👠| |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:53 - Aug 16 with 1270 views | TheResurrection |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:22 - Aug 15 by theloneranger |
Martinez brought back Kevin Reeves as Chief Scout.
Reeves' wife worked for Easy Jet, and he joked about all the discounted tickets she obtained for him when he flew to Spain on his scouting missions to the Spanish lower leagues. |
His wife working for Easy Jet doesn't mean Martinez brought him back FFS.
Now I'm not saying he did or didn't and like Ux said maybe I've forgotten, but Reeves was working for the Club before Martinez.
But the big thing is here we're pinpointing areas with a whole lot of hindsight as a method of what we shouldn't 'have moved away from'
That argument is totally flawed.
We are likening the Potter / Macauley team to Martinez and Reeves. I think it's great, the similarities, and I'm praying it's going to be like Martinez all over again. But Rodgers didn't have a Reeves or a Macauley and Laudrup just sorted himself out.
It was the EPL that ate us up gents. There is no magic formula in there and certainly not one that lasts, as for one, players and managers worth their salt get poached.
Best thread on here in ages. | |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:14 - Aug 16 with 1231 views | theloneranger |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:53 - Aug 16 by TheResurrection |
His wife working for Easy Jet doesn't mean Martinez brought him back FFS.
Now I'm not saying he did or didn't and like Ux said maybe I've forgotten, but Reeves was working for the Club before Martinez.
But the big thing is here we're pinpointing areas with a whole lot of hindsight as a method of what we shouldn't 'have moved away from'
That argument is totally flawed.
We are likening the Potter / Macauley team to Martinez and Reeves. I think it's great, the similarities, and I'm praying it's going to be like Martinez all over again. But Rodgers didn't have a Reeves or a Macauley and Laudrup just sorted himself out.
It was the EPL that ate us up gents. There is no magic formula in there and certainly not one that lasts, as for one, players and managers worth their salt get poached.
Best thread on here in ages. |
Here we are Chris just for you, some help with jogging your memory concerning former coach Kevin Reeves coming "Back" to the club under Martinez ...
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swansea-still-owe-d
It's obvious to most supporters that Reeves was working for the club before Martinez ... Otherwise we couldn't have "brought him back" 😂
Enjoy Croatia ... Went there 1972 when it was still Yugoslavia and not commercialised, lovely people and very beautiful young ladies   | |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:14 - Aug 16 with 1231 views | MoscowJack |
I think it's pretty clear that it all went wrong when panic buys were made. In previous years, we'd allegedly been scouting players for years before signing them and checking their suitability for a club like ours. That's what was said and I'm sure it was partly true.
I still believe that when Jenkins took his eye off the ball to sell the club, he lost control of recruitment and started the panic buying. The first signs were A. Ayew and Bafe, as well as Tabanou. It was a big move away from the 'hungry' and honest type of pro that we normally went for, and I'm convinced it was down to a lack of options due to poor control over recruitment.
Jenkins can't be lauded for being superb for so many years but not criticised for the errors too. I wrote on here, during our Championship days, that he was taking control of too much within the club and an experienced CEO or Head of Commercial should have been brought in to help (a) keep Jenkins focused on what he was good at, at the time and (b) maximise revenues from commercial operations that were so desperately low.
What the cause of the demise of Jenkins' ability to wave a magic wand on most transfers (and manager signings too) is debatable. It could have been his luck running out (don't believe he was just lucky for that long), it could have been that the current manager didn't have any contacts for him to rely on so he had to rely on his weak recruitment team, it could have been that there was a thought that we needed 'bigger' players within the squad, or simply that Jenkins was burnt out.
Whatever it was, it's important that it changes and I think we're seeing a return (yes, return) to the old ways of targetting players that are hungry, see us as a step up and have something to prove. That's what always worked for us and it certainly started to change when we were bringing in players who thought they were too big or important to play for us.
I really hope Potter gets time as I like the direction we're going in so far. These current struggles are frustrating and annoying, but I guarantee that it's going to be a superb bonding exercise for the players and management. Just seeing the reactions of the players at the final whistle in both the games so far indicates that. |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:13 - Aug 16 with 1187 views | Captain_Sham |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 09:29 - Aug 15 by Uxbridge |
Not sure if that's Chris' summary, but I think it would be inaccurate. Under Martinez, recruitment was overseen by Reeves, who was a Martinez man to the point he went to Wigan with him.
Sousa was a different animal who focused on the coaching side only and the recruitment side went elsewhere in the club. That didn't go as well.
Clearly the recruitment approach changed between Laudrup and Monk. Control was probably too far one way under Laudrup and there should be a consistent approach to recruitment, and it makes sense to have a separate and beefed up recruitment department, whatever the manager (as logically we'd recruit similar managers in terms of style of play). I don't believe for a second that Monk didn't have the final say on signings though.
The reasons for relegation are many though. Clearly we recruited baldy but that's not down to one reason. I don't think much of many of the recruits we brought in, but the circumstances at manager were not ideal. We signed a more physical, less technical type of player under Monk which saw us change the style of play. After that we constantly went into reactionary/damage limitation mode, changing manager mid season and having to react to a bad position in the January window.
Not that we didn't have chances to do things differently. The obvious one is why did we give Guidolin a new contract after he kept us up. It's hard to believe we'd be here now if Rodgers had got the gig. He was never going to be a long term option with his age and health. Clement looked to be the right sort but clearly turned out not to be.
It was the move away from the Plan A and the constant firefighting, rather than stop, undertake a proper review and figure out where we want to get to, that brings us here. The change in recruitment approach didn't do that, but it was another thing that didn't work... Not so much its existence, but its many many failures. Not without its successes of course. Andre Ayew would have been one if we hadn't brought him back. Thats not revisionism, said that at the time.
What we need now is joined up thinking. Have a plan for the playing side, make sure it's what we want as a club, and make sure management and recruitment are working together and making the right decisions. The players we've signed and looking to recruit look like the sort we'd have looked at back when we did things well, so that looks a good sign. Getting rid of so many of the squad is no bad thing so long as we bring in replacements who suit what we want to do. That's the gap at the moment, and the club have 2 weeks to give Potter the tools. This division isn't much, and it wouldn't take much to be at the top end of it. [Post edited 15 Aug 2018 9:31]
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"Clearly we recruited baldy ..."
You cant blame Bradley for everything.  |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 07:24 - Aug 17 with 1094 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 23:03 - Aug 15 by ItchySphincter |
Not the point. |
In the context of where we are now I think it's a very valid point.
Let's put it another way - if someone came to you after the end of the cup winning and 9th place season and said " I'll give you 8th and no cup but you'll have to watch long ball boring football and be relegated in 3/4 years". Would you take it? |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 07:36 - Aug 17 with 1079 views | waynekerr55 |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:14 - Aug 16 by MoscowJack |
I think it's pretty clear that it all went wrong when panic buys were made. In previous years, we'd allegedly been scouting players for years before signing them and checking their suitability for a club like ours. That's what was said and I'm sure it was partly true.
I still believe that when Jenkins took his eye off the ball to sell the club, he lost control of recruitment and started the panic buying. The first signs were A. Ayew and Bafe, as well as Tabanou. It was a big move away from the 'hungry' and honest type of pro that we normally went for, and I'm convinced it was down to a lack of options due to poor control over recruitment.
Jenkins can't be lauded for being superb for so many years but not criticised for the errors too. I wrote on here, during our Championship days, that he was taking control of too much within the club and an experienced CEO or Head of Commercial should have been brought in to help (a) keep Jenkins focused on what he was good at, at the time and (b) maximise revenues from commercial operations that were so desperately low.
What the cause of the demise of Jenkins' ability to wave a magic wand on most transfers (and manager signings too) is debatable. It could have been his luck running out (don't believe he was just lucky for that long), it could have been that the current manager didn't have any contacts for him to rely on so he had to rely on his weak recruitment team, it could have been that there was a thought that we needed 'bigger' players within the squad, or simply that Jenkins was burnt out.
Whatever it was, it's important that it changes and I think we're seeing a return (yes, return) to the old ways of targetting players that are hungry, see us as a step up and have something to prove. That's what always worked for us and it certainly started to change when we were bringing in players who thought they were too big or important to play for us.
I really hope Potter gets time as I like the direction we're going in so far. These current struggles are frustrating and annoying, but I guarantee that it's going to be a superb bonding exercise for the players and management. Just seeing the reactions of the players at the final whistle in both the games so far indicates that. |
Your second paragraph would be my guess
Spot on,! |  |
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| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:32 - Aug 17 with 1003 views | Jacket |
Haven't been to this thread until today as I didn't understand the title. Generally, if you don't move away from something you don't need to get back to it. So either you're lying in the first part, or the second part.
It's like saying I never left the pub, I came back here. It's moronic. You didn't stop being moronic, you started being moronic again - that sentence makes exactly as much sense as your title, that is, none at all. | | | |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:41 - Aug 17 with 993 views | Jacket |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:32 - Aug 17 by Jacket |
Haven't been to this thread until today as I didn't understand the title. Generally, if you don't move away from something you don't need to get back to it. So either you're lying in the first part, or the second part.
It's like saying I never left the pub, I came back here. It's moronic. You didn't stop being moronic, you started being moronic again - that sentence makes exactly as much sense as your title, that is, none at all. |
It's just occurred to me, perhaps I've read it completely wrong and what I thought was an it at the end was actually IT and you actually ment "We didn't move away from what worked for us, we went back to IT" i.e a reference to our use of Moneyball. So are you blaming Moneyball for this fine mess, is that what you're saying? | | | |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 12:53 - Aug 17 with 976 views | Jacket |
| WE DIDN'T MOVE AWAY FROM WHAT WORKED FOR US, WE WENT BACK TO IT on 11:14 - Aug 16 by MoscowJack |
I think it's pretty clear that it all went wrong when panic buys were made. In previous years, we'd allegedly been scouting players for years before signing them and checking their suitability for a club like ours. That's what was said and I'm sure it was partly true.
I still believe that when Jenkins took his eye off the ball to sell the club, he lost control of recruitment and started the panic buying. The first signs were A. Ayew and Bafe, as well as Tabanou. It was a big move away from the 'hungry' and honest type of pro that we normally went for, and I'm convinced it was down to a lack of options due to poor control over recruitment.
Jenkins can't be lauded for being superb for so many years but not criticised for the errors too. I wrote on here, during our Championship days, that he was taking control of too much within the club and an experienced CEO or Head of Commercial should have been brought in to help (a) keep Jenkins focused on what he was good at, at the time and (b) maximise revenues from commercial operations that were so desperately low.
What the cause of the demise of Jenkins' ability to wave a magic wand on most transfers (and manager signings too) is debatable. It could have been his luck running out (don't believe he was just lucky for that long), it could have been that the current manager didn't have any contacts for him to rely on so he had to rely on his weak recruitment team, it could have been that there was a thought that we needed 'bigger' players within the squad, or simply that Jenkins was burnt out.
Whatever it was, it's important that it changes and I think we're seeing a return (yes, return) to the old ways of targetting players that are hungry, see us as a step up and have something to prove. That's what always worked for us and it certainly started to change when we were bringing in players who thought they were too big or important to play for us.
I really hope Potter gets time as I like the direction we're going in so far. These current struggles are frustrating and annoying, but I guarantee that it's going to be a superb bonding exercise for the players and management. Just seeing the reactions of the players at the final whistle in both the games so far indicates that. |
Good post, although I would argue old Frank was the hungriest player I've seen in a Swans shirt since Jan Molby. | | | |
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