| Universal Basic Income 21:26 - May 14 with 6768 views | Gwyn737 |
https://www.theguardian.com/so
Economics isn’t an area of expertise for me. I can’t see how this would work. Can anyone here mount a case? |  | | |  |
| Universal Basic Income on 20:42 - May 15 with 1420 views | onehunglow |
Maybe we should all be remunerated as to our usefulness to the State. This means if you aint much use to the State you get paid jackshyte.
Im all for that really.Looking around,I see many who deserve nowt compared with those who do.
Communism does have some interesting facets.
At least everyone gets the same ,even if it is little,so no properties to rent out as a pension and no BUPA (for the bartards). | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 22:17 - May 15 with 1382 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 20:10 - May 15 by jack_lord |
That second paragraph sounds like a communist ideal. |
Go tell Brynmill Jack that, he keeps having a go at me whenever I'm critical of the left. He's certain I'm a tory I think!
Personally I think Communism is fantastic in principle but it can never work in the real world. Humanity is too flawed for it to ever succeed. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 23:50 - May 15 with 1358 views | jack_lord |
| Universal Basic Income on 20:42 - May 15 by onehunglow |
Maybe we should all be remunerated as to our usefulness to the State. This means if you aint much use to the State you get paid jackshyte.
Im all for that really.Looking around,I see many who deserve nowt compared with those who do.
Communism does have some interesting facets.
At least everyone gets the same ,even if it is little,so no properties to rent out as a pension and no BUPA (for the bartards). |
I'd be very useful to the state and at least I wouldn't have to worry about housing people and a pension. Mt time in Shelter Cymru was very well served and educational. |  |
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| Universal Basic Income on 08:42 - May 16 with 1313 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
Joseph Rowntree Foundation says UBI not a solution that works. |  |
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| Universal Basic Income on 09:30 - May 16 with 1277 views | Ajack_Kerouac |
It appears that Wales is governed by the economic illiterate .
When they f#ck everything up who is going to pay for it?
And who SHOULD pay for it? |  |
| "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid" - "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - "The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it" |
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| Universal Basic Income on 09:45 - May 16 with 1273 views | onehunglow |
| Universal Basic Income on 22:17 - May 15 by Catullus |
Go tell Brynmill Jack that, he keeps having a go at me whenever I'm critical of the left. He's certain I'm a tory I think!
Personally I think Communism is fantastic in principle but it can never work in the real world. Humanity is too flawed for it to ever succeed. |
Your last paragraph should be copied ,printed and made part of the national curriculum
Communism /Socialism goes against basic human nature unless you want people to be controlled from cradle to grave,catagorised,stigmatised,analysed and demonised.
That being referred to a a "Tory" -as a pejorative really shows how dirty and narrow minded we are.
I can think of worse labels. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 10:18 - May 16 with 1247 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Universal Basic Income on 09:45 - May 16 by onehunglow |
Your last paragraph should be copied ,printed and made part of the national curriculum
Communism /Socialism goes against basic human nature unless you want people to be controlled from cradle to grave,catagorised,stigmatised,analysed and demonised.
That being referred to a a "Tory" -as a pejorative really shows how dirty and narrow minded we are.
I can think of worse labels. |
Analysed or analised or both?
The former if you’re a socialist and the latter if you’re an Etonian or Harrovian. It’s a tough choice. |  |
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| Universal Basic Income on 10:38 - May 16 with 1233 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 10:18 - May 16 by Joe_bradshaw |
Analysed or analised or both?
The former if you’re a socialist and the latter if you’re an Etonian or Harrovian. It’s a tough choice. |
The problem is too many people think they have to be right or left when the reality is both sides have policies that work and policies that don't work. That's why we need a centrist party that will pick the best from both carcasses, I think it;s the only way forward.
Right now we are stuck in this loop of left OR right and the only new parties that come forward always seem to be further left or right.
Where have all the centrists gone? We are stuck with ever more greedy, self serving and at best disingenuous politicians on both sides. Worst still most of them seem quite useless too. Hancock FFS! how is he anywhere near the cabinet, he shouldn't even be making their tea. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 11:02 - May 16 with 1210 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Universal Basic Income on 10:38 - May 16 by Catullus |
The problem is too many people think they have to be right or left when the reality is both sides have policies that work and policies that don't work. That's why we need a centrist party that will pick the best from both carcasses, I think it;s the only way forward.
Right now we are stuck in this loop of left OR right and the only new parties that come forward always seem to be further left or right.
Where have all the centrists gone? We are stuck with ever more greedy, self serving and at best disingenuous politicians on both sides. Worst still most of them seem quite useless too. Hancock FFS! how is he anywhere near the cabinet, he shouldn't even be making their tea. |
I agree. There don’t seem to be many of us left. This idea that political parties are to be supported like football teams is bizarre to me. People may be generally supportive of left or right of centre but that develops into supporting your side on every single issue and defending your side’s misdemeanours as though that would be somehow letting the team down.
You’re right about Hancock. Hunt was much, much better than him on health but had to be sacked because he stood against Johnson and was a remainer. Johnson should have been big enough to bury the hatchet and appoint the best person for the job. Driving people like Rory Stewart out of the Tory party because he was a remainer was stupid and reduced the available talent for the cabinet.
Starmer has been very disappointing and faces an emboldened left again after the recent election failures so will be more concerned with civil war than providing an effective opposition to the government, and the country desperately needs an effective opposition because it makes for better government. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 11:05 - May 16 with 1204 views | jack_lord |
| Universal Basic Income on 10:38 - May 16 by Catullus |
The problem is too many people think they have to be right or left when the reality is both sides have policies that work and policies that don't work. That's why we need a centrist party that will pick the best from both carcasses, I think it;s the only way forward.
Right now we are stuck in this loop of left OR right and the only new parties that come forward always seem to be further left or right.
Where have all the centrists gone? We are stuck with ever more greedy, self serving and at best disingenuous politicians on both sides. Worst still most of them seem quite useless too. Hancock FFS! how is he anywhere near the cabinet, he shouldn't even be making their tea. |
Centrist or slightly left of centre is good with me.
We have had Brexit and a pandemic which has temporarily shook up the centre ground. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 11:09 - May 16 with 1196 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 11:02 - May 16 by Joe_bradshaw |
I agree. There don’t seem to be many of us left. This idea that political parties are to be supported like football teams is bizarre to me. People may be generally supportive of left or right of centre but that develops into supporting your side on every single issue and defending your side’s misdemeanours as though that would be somehow letting the team down.
You’re right about Hancock. Hunt was much, much better than him on health but had to be sacked because he stood against Johnson and was a remainer. Johnson should have been big enough to bury the hatchet and appoint the best person for the job. Driving people like Rory Stewart out of the Tory party because he was a remainer was stupid and reduced the available talent for the cabinet.
Starmer has been very disappointing and faces an emboldened left again after the recent election failures so will be more concerned with civil war than providing an effective opposition to the government, and the country desperately needs an effective opposition because it makes for better government. |
"Defending your sides misdemeanors" is the classic thing, often they don't even defend what their side does wrong, they just start pointing out where the oppo have been worst. It's as if they're saying, it's Ok that we are rubbish because the other side are worse. That doesn't wash. It's that attitude that sees us stuck with Bojo. It's been a race to the bottom and how much more can we scrape the bottom of the barrel? | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 11:43 - May 16 with 1172 views | jack_lord |
| Universal Basic Income on 11:09 - May 16 by Catullus |
"Defending your sides misdemeanors" is the classic thing, often they don't even defend what their side does wrong, they just start pointing out where the oppo have been worst. It's as if they're saying, it's Ok that we are rubbish because the other side are worse. That doesn't wash. It's that attitude that sees us stuck with Bojo. It's been a race to the bottom and how much more can we scrape the bottom of the barrel? |
What did the Liberal Democrats do wrong (rhetorical) | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 11:53 - May 16 with 1171 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 11:43 - May 16 by jack_lord |
What did the Liberal Democrats do wrong (rhetorical) |
I know it doesn't need answering but, they were as guilty as anybody on not listening to the people. They U turned on Uni fees then after Brexit they kept banging on about reversing it. OI agreed with some of their policies but on the big issues they just were not listening.
We had a Libdem councillor locally, every time we heard anything from her it always seemed to be her banging on about what she did. Speaking to neighbours they seemed of the opinion she was taking credit for other people's actions but in reality had achieved little herself. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 14:19 - May 16 with 1134 views | onehunglow |
| Universal Basic Income on 10:18 - May 16 by Joe_bradshaw |
Analysed or analised or both?
The former if you’re a socialist and the latter if you’re an Etonian or Harrovian. It’s a tough choice. |
or Westminster school,Dulwich college of even Llandovery.
I do not care about what school any politician goes to. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 17:52 - May 16 with 1097 views | KeithHaynes |
| Universal Basic Income on 14:19 - May 16 by onehunglow |
or Westminster school,Dulwich college of even Llandovery.
I do not care about what school any politician goes to. |
Not a school as such.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| Universal Basic Income on 17:55 - May 16 with 1090 views | johnlangy |
| Universal Basic Income on 09:57 - May 15 by trampie |
As regards the possibility of less and less employment in the future due to automation, computers, sweat shops overseas etc, then loafing at home is very much an option, you loaf at home for basic income or you do an ordinary job for minimum wage plus basic income, comparing the two then work would pay in that instance, at the moment it doesn't as some are better off on benefits than working the theory is that would not be case under a full UBI.
This proposed trial I would guess would not be looking at it from the point of view of a lack of work being available for all per se, but it's something that might happen in the future, they reckon that driverless lorries, vans and cars plus delivery drones in the future will put loads out of work and then there might be no choice but to look at UBI. [Post edited 15 May 2021 9:58]
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You mentioned a figure in an earlier post Trampie of £1500 a month, a guess i'm sure.
My understanding is that the figure would be around the current State Pension amount ie about £7000 a year or £600 a month. You can then work and top up that amount without worrying about losing your 'benefits'.
Someone said you can't just give money to everyone. There's no magic money tree. We already currently give money to a lot of people. There are around 9 million economically inactive people in the UK including pensioners, those who can't work through disability and those literally out of work. We also give quite a lot of money to millions of others who need their pathetically low wages to be subsidised by the state (see my Tesco example earlier). All that money is provided by about 32 million who work at the moment.
As you say Trampie, it's been estimated that another 8 million will be out of work due to AI which would leave just 24 million paying taxes to cover benefits for almost the same number. It doesn't sound as if it adds up.
This is a question to anyone who understands these things (because I don't) but is the answer, or part of the answer, Corporation Tax ?
A company that gets rid of its workforce and replaces them with machines could have those machines working 24/7/365. Machines don't take holidays and they don't take sick leave. So in theory that company could end up making an incredible profit and they would end up paying a HUGE amount of Corp tax. | | | |
| Universal Basic Income on 17:57 - May 16 with 1089 views | onehunglow |
| Universal Basic Income on 17:52 - May 16 by KeithHaynes |
Not a school as such.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Posh has never bothered me as much as many. I’ve always thought them under privileged not over.
Imagine been sent away at 5 for prep school ,preparing you for whole scale abuse at the next school.
Being looked after by a pitifully paid often desperate girl ,a nanny, being treated by parents as an inconvenience . That is not privilege but abuse .
To be brought up in that world is to live detached from reality. They are no happier either and suicides include those from “ posh” homes . | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 18:56 - May 16 with 1070 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 17:55 - May 16 by johnlangy |
You mentioned a figure in an earlier post Trampie of £1500 a month, a guess i'm sure.
My understanding is that the figure would be around the current State Pension amount ie about £7000 a year or £600 a month. You can then work and top up that amount without worrying about losing your 'benefits'.
Someone said you can't just give money to everyone. There's no magic money tree. We already currently give money to a lot of people. There are around 9 million economically inactive people in the UK including pensioners, those who can't work through disability and those literally out of work. We also give quite a lot of money to millions of others who need their pathetically low wages to be subsidised by the state (see my Tesco example earlier). All that money is provided by about 32 million who work at the moment.
As you say Trampie, it's been estimated that another 8 million will be out of work due to AI which would leave just 24 million paying taxes to cover benefits for almost the same number. It doesn't sound as if it adds up.
This is a question to anyone who understands these things (because I don't) but is the answer, or part of the answer, Corporation Tax ?
A company that gets rid of its workforce and replaces them with machines could have those machines working 24/7/365. Machines don't take holidays and they don't take sick leave. So in theory that company could end up making an incredible profit and they would end up paying a HUGE amount of Corp tax. |
It has to be that we incentivise giving people jobs by imposing a tax on machines. People need to work, we need a function, a reason. If we don't have one we see all sorts of societal problems.
Corp tax increases work for me. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 21:08 - May 16 with 1040 views | trampie |
| Universal Basic Income on 17:55 - May 16 by johnlangy |
You mentioned a figure in an earlier post Trampie of £1500 a month, a guess i'm sure.
My understanding is that the figure would be around the current State Pension amount ie about £7000 a year or £600 a month. You can then work and top up that amount without worrying about losing your 'benefits'.
Someone said you can't just give money to everyone. There's no magic money tree. We already currently give money to a lot of people. There are around 9 million economically inactive people in the UK including pensioners, those who can't work through disability and those literally out of work. We also give quite a lot of money to millions of others who need their pathetically low wages to be subsidised by the state (see my Tesco example earlier). All that money is provided by about 32 million who work at the moment.
As you say Trampie, it's been estimated that another 8 million will be out of work due to AI which would leave just 24 million paying taxes to cover benefits for almost the same number. It doesn't sound as if it adds up.
This is a question to anyone who understands these things (because I don't) but is the answer, or part of the answer, Corporation Tax ?
A company that gets rid of its workforce and replaces them with machines could have those machines working 24/7/365. Machines don't take holidays and they don't take sick leave. So in theory that company could end up making an incredible profit and they would end up paying a HUGE amount of Corp tax. |
It was I think the example figure I heard last year talking about the future and not enough jobs to go around, we will definitely have to look at corporation tax for the big companies to try and get a fair amount of revenue in. |  |
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| Universal Basic Income on 21:31 - May 16 with 1025 views | Catullus |
| Universal Basic Income on 21:08 - May 16 by trampie |
It was I think the example figure I heard last year talking about the future and not enough jobs to go around, we will definitely have to look at corporation tax for the big companies to try and get a fair amount of revenue in. |
£1500 is a lot though. If myself and my wife got £1500 each but all other Welfare stopped we'd be around £2,600 better off every month.
With the best will in the world there's only so much of that we'd spend, most of it would go on the mortgage and clearing other debts. We save roughly £300 every month as it is. My wife working from home saved us around £150 in petrol every month and that's looking like being a permanent thing.
1500 just seems overly generous. Maybe they'd need a sliding scle so the poorest get the full amount and it's reduced as your income rises? | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 21:48 - May 16 with 1012 views | trampie |
| Universal Basic Income on 21:31 - May 16 by Catullus |
£1500 is a lot though. If myself and my wife got £1500 each but all other Welfare stopped we'd be around £2,600 better off every month.
With the best will in the world there's only so much of that we'd spend, most of it would go on the mortgage and clearing other debts. We save roughly £300 every month as it is. My wife working from home saved us around £150 in petrol every month and that's looking like being a permanent thing.
1500 just seems overly generous. Maybe they'd need a sliding scle so the poorest get the full amount and it's reduced as your income rises? |
I suppose it depends on the context, under the hypothetical scheme I heard being discussed children would have no money gifted to them and there would be no extra money given to parents with children just every adult would be entitled to the payment and there would be no benefits of any kind was the way it was presented.
Thinking about it a single parent with several kids would not do as well as single person or a couple with no children, I would not be surprised if it happens in years to come but in what form is anyone's guess at this stage, but it does seem to been trialled by lots of Governments across the World so they are looking at it as they seem to think we will have economic issues affecting the masses down the line. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 22:43 - May 16 with 989 views | johnlangy |
| Universal Basic Income on 21:08 - May 16 by trampie |
It was I think the example figure I heard last year talking about the future and not enough jobs to go around, we will definitely have to look at corporation tax for the big companies to try and get a fair amount of revenue in. |
AFAIK Corp Tax is paid on profits. Provided the Government get their collective ar&es in gear to prevent big companies tax avoidance/evasion then an enormous amount of Corp Tax would result. | | | |
| Universal Basic Income on 23:16 - May 16 with 965 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| Universal Basic Income on 17:55 - May 16 by johnlangy |
You mentioned a figure in an earlier post Trampie of £1500 a month, a guess i'm sure.
My understanding is that the figure would be around the current State Pension amount ie about £7000 a year or £600 a month. You can then work and top up that amount without worrying about losing your 'benefits'.
Someone said you can't just give money to everyone. There's no magic money tree. We already currently give money to a lot of people. There are around 9 million economically inactive people in the UK including pensioners, those who can't work through disability and those literally out of work. We also give quite a lot of money to millions of others who need their pathetically low wages to be subsidised by the state (see my Tesco example earlier). All that money is provided by about 32 million who work at the moment.
As you say Trampie, it's been estimated that another 8 million will be out of work due to AI which would leave just 24 million paying taxes to cover benefits for almost the same number. It doesn't sound as if it adds up.
This is a question to anyone who understands these things (because I don't) but is the answer, or part of the answer, Corporation Tax ?
A company that gets rid of its workforce and replaces them with machines could have those machines working 24/7/365. Machines don't take holidays and they don't take sick leave. So in theory that company could end up making an incredible profit and they would end up paying a HUGE amount of Corp tax. |
We could of course create some jobs? | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 23:52 - May 16 with 952 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Universal Basic Income on 23:16 - May 16 by JACKMANANDBOY |
We could of course create some jobs? |
Yes, by making the country an attractive place in which to locate your business. This is why it’s a balancing act by any government and to some extent explains the seeming reluctance to ensure that corporation tax is paid by closing loopholes exploited by big businesses.
If Wales unilaterally had a higher rate of corporation tax than England or even somehow closed loopholes so that more tax was paid the result is obvious. We need a dialogue between government and business so that business is attracted to locate here but pays a realistic amount of tax on profit. It’s not as easy as many people seem to think. | |
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| Universal Basic Income on 07:35 - May 17 with 903 views | Whiterockin |
| Universal Basic Income on 18:56 - May 16 by Catullus |
It has to be that we incentivise giving people jobs by imposing a tax on machines. People need to work, we need a function, a reason. If we don't have one we see all sorts of societal problems.
Corp tax increases work for me. |
The last 12 months are a perfect example of this. |  | | |
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