| Right l’m putting myself out there 23:12 - Aug 17 with 6265 views | max936 |
Would we have lost that 3-1 if Stevie was still in charge,
Fire away, as Clint said in a Fist full of Dollars aim at the heart  |  | | |  |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 18:10 - Aug 18 with 716 views | onehunglow |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 18:04 - Aug 18 by monmouth |
No mun, we have a manager looking at players capabilities that after two weeks he is still finding out about and evaluating. They can probably play the style in training but under real pressure (and by God Stoke have to be given credit for that) those who fail become obvious. Wait until he reshapes the side. I think he’s already realised that Bidwell won’t make it but that Manning might, and that Piroe is likely a better option than Cullen or Lowe.
We have the best manager we could get. He will know more than anyone the size of the job now. And I don’t believe for one second he doesn’t know Stoke duffed us up, nor that some of the players he was praising were absolute manure, but I hope and believe he will be very realistic in private. If not, he simply won’t make it. Judge him in March, not August. |
He might not be there to judge ,Mike ,then.
By that time,we could be rock bottom;we will be if we carry on as we are.
Right now,most are being carried along on the river of hope. It won't wash with me.
Prove me wrong Russy |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 23:35 - Aug 18 with 652 views | ploppy |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 18:04 - Aug 18 by monmouth |
No mun, we have a manager looking at players capabilities that after two weeks he is still finding out about and evaluating. They can probably play the style in training but under real pressure (and by God Stoke have to be given credit for that) those who fail become obvious. Wait until he reshapes the side. I think he’s already realised that Bidwell won’t make it but that Manning might, and that Piroe is likely a better option than Cullen or Lowe.
We have the best manager we could get. He will know more than anyone the size of the job now. And I don’t believe for one second he doesn’t know Stoke duffed us up, nor that some of the players he was praising were absolute manure, but I hope and believe he will be very realistic in private. If not, he simply won’t make it. Judge him in March, not August. |
Maybe Bidwell won't make it but he seems like the only one who can put a decent cross into the box at the moment. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 10:52 - Aug 19 with 571 views | monmouth |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 23:35 - Aug 18 by ploppy |
Maybe Bidwell won't make it but he seems like the only one who can put a decent cross into the box at the moment. |
I quite like him. Before he came to us he had the best crossing assist stats in the league. He just has no pace and I think that’s what Martin might want from his wingbacks. For what it’s worth with hindsight I think swapping Biddy and Manning around on Tuesday would have given us a better outlook. I think he, unlike Manning, has at least played centre back. That said, Manning was really good against Sheffield. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:37 - Aug 19 with 542 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:48 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Slightly different reason for the call for patience though, that's the issue here.
I was (am) also one to advocate for patience and time for a system to become optimum, was the same when Laudrup especially did away with our winger system that had become such a huge part of our style. I would have given that months and months to become second nature with the squad and become optimum.
However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force.
If its a system ''bedding in'' issue, patience is key. If it's a personnel issue then that needs to be addressed and recognised as a matter of urgency because they can have as much time as they like, but if they are the wrong player - the issue doesn't go away with time.
So patience is absolutely key once we have players we feel confident can play the roles required.... Until that time, urgency is most certainly the order of the day. |
"However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force."
Time will make someone a better passer.
They are obviously all already good at passing, otherwise they wouldn't be a professional in the sport of passing.
They will improve in their understanding of when and how to pass in this system, plus how and when to move into spaces which will make passing easier for their teammates.
Time will make someone know how to hold up the ball and when to do it to help the team.
Training will help certain players build up confidence and physical ability to do so, if that's what they need. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:46 - Aug 19 with 540 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 08:06 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Agreed, that's hence the concern. It's also my understanding regarding the no desire for a short term compromise to the system.
It all feels needlessly drastic to me. I would prefer to see a more balanced approach until we have the right players in. Otherwise we are chucking away points and jeapordising not only our Championship status but the calibre of players we can get in future windows... which by the very same stroke is potentially hampering the growth of this system if it is relying on future windows to work.
I was a Cooperball fan - in so much as I could clearly see it was the most successful way a limited squad like ours could play.
But I much prefer the pass and move old way we used to do things when we had a squad capable of it. I am right on board with it if the owners think they can safely fund the players required to do it.
Playing that way without those players however, is needless suicide though. No amount of time will fix that.
I also agree regarding finishing position. I initially wanted around 12th, now I'm starting to think anything above the drop will do. [Post edited 18 Aug 2021 8:11]
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So you recommend we should either force RM to change his tactics and not to use the passing style until next season? Until then, we play a totally different style, which he may not even be very good at teaching players to play?
If he doesn't agree to do that, should we sack him and bring someone else in, more in the mould of Steve Cooper? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:50 - Aug 19 with 536 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:44 - Aug 18 by ploppy |
See their second goal? I warned everyone after the Blackburn game (obvs, RM wasn't paying attention) that the ball from the goalkeeper (or in this case Brandon Cooper, I think)
into a retreating Grimes with a player up his backside was a disaster waiting to happen. His (Grimes') favourite pass to the LB is cut off, he can't play "round the corner" because he has no right foot. His options are 1. back to Cooper, or 2. back to Benda. Pointless. As I pointed out back then, any mis-control by Grimes and we're in trouble. And that's exactly what happened. I'm available for consultation if RM would like to get in touch. |
That is how it's meant to work though.
If there is no out ball to the CBs, the DM will be free.
The passing needs to be much quicker, thats all.
With practice, Grimes, or whoever is in that DM spot, will have a free teammate nearby to drop it in to. Or the ball back to Benda or CB.
It's not about telling the manager to stop doing this. It's about making it easier for the player to complete this. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:52 - Aug 19 with 529 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:37 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
"However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force."
Time will make someone a better passer.
They are obviously all already good at passing, otherwise they wouldn't be a professional in the sport of passing.
They will improve in their understanding of when and how to pass in this system, plus how and when to move into spaces which will make passing easier for their teammates.
Time will make someone know how to hold up the ball and when to do it to help the team.
Training will help certain players build up confidence and physical ability to do so, if that's what they need. |
Disagree completely.
We aren’t talking about making someone better, it’s not a holiday camp. We are looking for technical specialists.
“Time” and certainly not the “time” we are talking about is going to be enough to turn Bennett into ball playing center back. It’s also not going to turn Cullen into an all rounder.
It’s pie in the sky. You may continue to have a dreamy, yet unrealistic view of football. I will continue to talk realistically.
When Liverpool needed a focal point up front, they wouldn’t keep Owen and say “he may be one in time”, it’s not his game. They got in Heskey. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:54 - Aug 19 with 528 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:46 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
So you recommend we should either force RM to change his tactics and not to use the passing style until next season? Until then, we play a totally different style, which he may not even be very good at teaching players to play?
If he doesn't agree to do that, should we sack him and bring someone else in, more in the mould of Steve Cooper? |
I’ve not put a time limit on it. Depends when we are ready as a squad, it may be 6 months, it may be 6 years. That’s largely out of our hands to predict.
What I am saying is, until we have the squad capable of playing this way then there is no way we should be. Especially when we get so comprehensively outplayed when we do it. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:58 - Aug 19 with 528 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:30 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Last season we were without Ayew for 3 games…. We won 2 and lost 1
There was a further 2 games when he played less than 30 mins…. We drew both.
The year before we were without him for 2 games… won 1 and drew the other.
Over the last two seasons we were without Ayew for 7 league games in total… won 3, drew 3, lost 1.
12 points from 7 games, which if that form continued would give us a 78 point return and a certain play off place.
…….
We were without Guehi for 6 games last season. We had 3 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss. 11 points from 6 games, which if that form continued would would give us a record breaking 84 points.
We were very adaptable without our star players last season, contrary to a widely spread belief. [Post edited 18 Aug 2021 14:41]
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So we were adaptable then, but are not adaptable now? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:02 - Aug 19 with 519 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:58 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
So we were adaptable then, but are not adaptable now? |
I don’t understand the conclusion you are drawing.
My point is that last year we lost Ayew and Guehi and still managed to regularly pick up points.
So the notion that we have lost some players as a reason for the performances doesn’t really wash.
The team was strong enough defensively to win games in a more pragmatic style last year even without our star players.
So there is no reason we cannot have a more pragmatic style this year and pick up points along the way until we have the squad in place capable of playing this way.
Simple really isn’t it? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:02 - Aug 19 with 522 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:52 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Disagree completely.
We aren’t talking about making someone better, it’s not a holiday camp. We are looking for technical specialists.
“Time” and certainly not the “time” we are talking about is going to be enough to turn Bennett into ball playing center back. It’s also not going to turn Cullen into an all rounder.
It’s pie in the sky. You may continue to have a dreamy, yet unrealistic view of football. I will continue to talk realistically.
When Liverpool needed a focal point up front, they wouldn’t keep Owen and say “he may be one in time”, it’s not his game. They got in Heskey. |
I'm not saying players won't need to be replaced.
I'm saying time and practice will make players better and able to understand what is required from them.
We may not have all the players to get us back to the premier league doing this, but we also do not need a full squad overhaul.
Yes, Michael Owen can definitely be taught to play in a different system and how to hold the ball up.
He may not be able to do this to a level to win the premier league, but he will definitely improve in time. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:03 - Aug 19 with 521 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:54 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’ve not put a time limit on it. Depends when we are ready as a squad, it may be 6 months, it may be 6 years. That’s largely out of our hands to predict.
What I am saying is, until we have the squad capable of playing this way then there is no way we should be. Especially when we get so comprehensively outplayed when we do it. |
So did we have the squad to play this way when Potter was here? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:05 - Aug 19 with 515 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:02 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
I'm not saying players won't need to be replaced.
I'm saying time and practice will make players better and able to understand what is required from them.
We may not have all the players to get us back to the premier league doing this, but we also do not need a full squad overhaul.
Yes, Michael Owen can definitely be taught to play in a different system and how to hold the ball up.
He may not be able to do this to a level to win the premier league, but he will definitely improve in time. |
Again, it’s not a holiday camp. Improving Michael Owen so he gets a bit better at something is of no interest to the club, they want a specialist there, not to send Mr Owen on a journey of discovery to improve himself a little bit.
Same goes for us, while continued training may improve someone slightly, it’s of no interest to us. We need specialists not someone who improves from mediocre to less mediocre. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:07 - Aug 19 with 516 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:02 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
I don’t understand the conclusion you are drawing.
My point is that last year we lost Ayew and Guehi and still managed to regularly pick up points.
So the notion that we have lost some players as a reason for the performances doesn’t really wash.
The team was strong enough defensively to win games in a more pragmatic style last year even without our star players.
So there is no reason we cannot have a more pragmatic style this year and pick up points along the way until we have the squad in place capable of playing this way.
Simple really isn’t it? |
No point practicing in training all week and learning new ways to set up in games, simply for the manager to tell the team not to try it in games.
Are you suggesting he continues to teach in the way he wants to play, but wait until next season, or the season later, until we can buy a squad of ball playing footballers before we start implementing these tactics? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:11 - Aug 19 with 510 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:07 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
No point practicing in training all week and learning new ways to set up in games, simply for the manager to tell the team not to try it in games.
Are you suggesting he continues to teach in the way he wants to play, but wait until next season, or the season later, until we can buy a squad of ball playing footballers before we start implementing these tactics? |
Who is advocating that?
You train every week for the system you are going to play in your next game.
When we get the players in that are capable of playing tiki take football then training will adapt to that preparation.
It really isn’t rocket science. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:12 - Aug 19 with 513 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:05 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Again, it’s not a holiday camp. Improving Michael Owen so he gets a bit better at something is of no interest to the club, they want a specialist there, not to send Mr Owen on a journey of discovery to improve himself a little bit.
Same goes for us, while continued training may improve someone slightly, it’s of no interest to us. We need specialists not someone who improves from mediocre to less mediocre. |
We are not in a position to spend millions on Emile Heskeys.
We are not vying for the premier league title.
We are attempting to stay in the 2nd tier of English football.
If these players aren't able to do that, whilst changing back to how we used to play, then there needs to be a lot of changes.
I do not believe that to be the case.
I think this set of players wil easily stay in this division.
I think over time they will play better and the ones who can't will be overtaken by players that can.
In a few seasons, we will be in a place to challenge once more for the top table. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:15 - Aug 19 with 509 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:12 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
We are not in a position to spend millions on Emile Heskeys.
We are not vying for the premier league title.
We are attempting to stay in the 2nd tier of English football.
If these players aren't able to do that, whilst changing back to how we used to play, then there needs to be a lot of changes.
I do not believe that to be the case.
I think this set of players wil easily stay in this division.
I think over time they will play better and the ones who can't will be overtaken by players that can.
In a few seasons, we will be in a place to challenge once more for the top table. |
Who is advocating winning the Premier League or signing players for millions?
It’s all relative, we are looking to return to the Premier League. Our owners didn’t buy us for a jolly, the aim is to be as good as we can be and give ourselves the best chance for success.
That means getting in the players required to play a certain style. Specialists. That doesn’t mean taking technically limited players and making them less mediocre in those disciplines than what they are.
If that’s the height of your ambitions then so be it. But it certainly won’t be the boards I can assure you and if that is the managers thoughts then he won’t last the year. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:16 - Aug 19 with 512 views | Catullus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:50 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
That is how it's meant to work though.
If there is no out ball to the CBs, the DM will be free.
The passing needs to be much quicker, thats all.
With practice, Grimes, or whoever is in that DM spot, will have a free teammate nearby to drop it in to. Or the ball back to Benda or CB.
It's not about telling the manager to stop doing this. It's about making it easier for the player to complete this. |
I'm with you. I do think Grimes drops too deep and it causes problems because there's no space and it becomes easy for the forwards to close down BUT with practise it should come. The lack of movement, players looking for space, that is what needs to change. When Grimes needs an out ball someone has to make themselves available. And yes, the passing needs to be quicker too but again, with time and practise that should come. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:24 - Aug 19 with 502 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:11 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Who is advocating that?
You train every week for the system you are going to play in your next game.
When we get the players in that are capable of playing tiki take football then training will adapt to that preparation.
It really isn’t rocket science. |
So by your reckoning, we shouldn't get a manager like RM in until the players have already been signed?
Keep Cooper, sign a load of players that will not fit in to his style of play. Once we have all the ball playing players, we then should sack our manager and look for a ball playing manager? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:31 - Aug 19 with 497 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:24 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
So by your reckoning, we shouldn't get a manager like RM in until the players have already been signed?
Keep Cooper, sign a load of players that will not fit in to his style of play. Once we have all the ball playing players, we then should sack our manager and look for a ball playing manager? |
Why do you keep telling me what I’m saying or what my “reckoning” is? Why don’t you just take my words as they are written.
As I have said, now for the fourth time, I believe Martin is adaptable. I don’t think he is so limited that he can only play one way. If he is, then I’m concerned even more. Even if by some miracle he turns us into Brazil of the 1970’s, he will still need to be able to adapt.
I think he should play a style that doesn’t involve telling a group of technically limited defenders to knock the ball about in front of our own goal under severe pressure until we have players capable of following that game plan with some degree of success.
Simply that. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:33 - Aug 19 with 498 views | jack247 |
It would have been much easier and presumably cheaper to bring a Steve Cooper clone in and ask him to play the same way with a weakened squad. There’s no point getting Martin and expecting him to play last seasons football.
It’s patently obvious that Martins style isn’t working so far. The majority agreed that would be the case before the season started. I don’t think it’s a case of bashing square pegs into round holes as much as working out which players have a future here (there will always be a Warnock to take them off our hands if wages aren’t an issue) and replacing them with ones that fit the mould. If that process takes time, as long as we aren’t in danger of relegation (which nobody ever is in August) then so be it.
As for the passing, I think he’s actually got that aspect working ok. What we need to improve is the off ball movement to give teammates in possession multiple options. At the moment, too many are static, which causes the man on the ball to turn and pass backwards. I think we also need a bit more inertia to run at players, cause opponents to move out of position, centrally and wide. Bidwell and Latabaudiere aren’t going to provide that, possibly Lowe and Laird will? | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:33 - Aug 19 with 498 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:31 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Why do you keep telling me what I’m saying or what my “reckoning” is? Why don’t you just take my words as they are written.
As I have said, now for the fourth time, I believe Martin is adaptable. I don’t think he is so limited that he can only play one way. If he is, then I’m concerned even more. Even if by some miracle he turns us into Brazil of the 1970’s, he will still need to be able to adapt.
I think he should play a style that doesn’t involve telling a group of technically limited defenders to knock the ball about in front of our own goal under severe pressure until we have players capable of following that game plan with some degree of success.
Simply that. |
And I believe that this group of technically inept players he has so unfortunately inherited, are actually decent footballers who can improve.
Simply that. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:35 - Aug 19 with 492 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:33 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
And I believe that this group of technically inept players he has so unfortunately inherited, are actually decent footballers who can improve.
Simply that. |
Improving isn’t what we are looking for. Again this isn’t a self improvement holiday camp.
We need specialists. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:45 - Aug 19 with 486 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:33 - Aug 19 by jack247 |
It would have been much easier and presumably cheaper to bring a Steve Cooper clone in and ask him to play the same way with a weakened squad. There’s no point getting Martin and expecting him to play last seasons football.
It’s patently obvious that Martins style isn’t working so far. The majority agreed that would be the case before the season started. I don’t think it’s a case of bashing square pegs into round holes as much as working out which players have a future here (there will always be a Warnock to take them off our hands if wages aren’t an issue) and replacing them with ones that fit the mould. If that process takes time, as long as we aren’t in danger of relegation (which nobody ever is in August) then so be it.
As for the passing, I think he’s actually got that aspect working ok. What we need to improve is the off ball movement to give teammates in possession multiple options. At the moment, too many are static, which causes the man on the ball to turn and pass backwards. I think we also need a bit more inertia to run at players, cause opponents to move out of position, centrally and wide. Bidwell and Latabaudiere aren’t going to provide that, possibly Lowe and Laird will? |
I agree.
The style doesn't seem to be working, but it's only 3 days old. Changing back to the old style is just stupid though. What on earth would be the point in that?
As you say, buying the correct players will take time. We have to give him that time.
Constantly moaning and slagging our manager or team, because they won't play more pragmatically is not going to make them do it.
We must trust in what they are doing and believe they are going to get better.
You said that you believe that the main prblems are off the ball and running at players.
Do you believe these things can be improved in some of the players we have? Or do you think that there is no way to train these things in to players, so we need to buy a new squad? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:52 - Aug 19 with 480 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:45 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
I agree.
The style doesn't seem to be working, but it's only 3 days old. Changing back to the old style is just stupid though. What on earth would be the point in that?
As you say, buying the correct players will take time. We have to give him that time.
Constantly moaning and slagging our manager or team, because they won't play more pragmatically is not going to make them do it.
We must trust in what they are doing and believe they are going to get better.
You said that you believe that the main prblems are off the ball and running at players.
Do you believe these things can be improved in some of the players we have? Or do you think that there is no way to train these things in to players, so we need to buy a new squad? |
Who has said change back to the old style? | |
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