| Right l’m putting myself out there 23:12 - Aug 17 with 6268 views | max936 |
Would we have lost that 3-1 if Stevie was still in charge,
Fire away, as Clint said in a Fist full of Dollars aim at the heart  |  | | |  |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:53 - Aug 19 with 637 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:35 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Improving isn’t what we are looking for. Again this isn’t a self improvement holiday camp.
We need specialists. |
If improvement isn't what we are looking for, we should sack the academy and use our full loan quota every year.
Improvement is always what we should be looking for!
The reason RM, and Potter before him tried playerrs in many positions, sign players who can play in multiple positions and make adaptable plyers their priority.
We have players who are adaptable and can play in several positions.
We do not need a squad overhaul.
We do not need to stop players learning a different way of playing.
We are changing our style of play.
This is what we have been told. This is hat the board is spending their money on and putting their faith in.
The pragmatist way has not worked. It has even stalled us and made us worse tbh.
If Potter was still here, we would be much better off. Maybe not by league position, but we would be further along in our project of being a decent, ballplaying football team.
We are now back to square one. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:55 - Aug 19 with 633 views | Catullus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:11 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Who is advocating that?
You train every week for the system you are going to play in your next game.
When we get the players in that are capable of playing tiki take football then training will adapt to that preparation.
It really isn’t rocket science. |
That makes little sense. If you train and play a certain way, you don't go out and sign players (if your opinion about players needing to be specialists is right) who don't fit into your style. What do you do in training, run two different camps, two different teams and tell the new players they won't play until there is whole team?
Players have to adapt or get moved on. Which manager has ever gone out and signed a load of players he knows are not capable of playing the current style? He signs players he thinks will fit. That is what Martin will do, he will look for players to play the way he wants and move out those who can't. That's how it's done.
You cannot compare us to Liverpool, when they want a specialist they go out and pay what is needed, we don't have the money, we need to do it OUR way. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:56 - Aug 19 with 630 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:53 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
If improvement isn't what we are looking for, we should sack the academy and use our full loan quota every year.
Improvement is always what we should be looking for!
The reason RM, and Potter before him tried playerrs in many positions, sign players who can play in multiple positions and make adaptable plyers their priority.
We have players who are adaptable and can play in several positions.
We do not need a squad overhaul.
We do not need to stop players learning a different way of playing.
We are changing our style of play.
This is what we have been told. This is hat the board is spending their money on and putting their faith in.
The pragmatist way has not worked. It has even stalled us and made us worse tbh.
If Potter was still here, we would be much better off. Maybe not by league position, but we would be further along in our project of being a decent, ballplaying football team.
We are now back to square one. |
But that’s the academy not our first team. The academy is designed for developing players through their development years.
The first team is to finely tune finished articles and in some cases nurture and improve players still developing. You don’t sign hoofball merchants and turn them into cultured passers in training, sorry but you seem to have a warped view of football.
It’s not how it works. |  |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:57 - Aug 19 with 629 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:52 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Who has said change back to the old style? |
You.
You said to play in a pragmatic way until we have all the new players to be able to play in a different way | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:02 - Aug 19 with 622 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:57 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
You.
You said to play in a pragmatic way until we have all the new players to be able to play in a different way |
Nope, you are making your own things up with what I have said again.
So the only pragmatic way to play, in your view, is how we played last season then?
There are an infinite amount of pragmatic ways to play that doesn’t involve knocking the ball around in your own 18 yard box with technically limited players.
Did Stoke play like we played last season then? Because they didn’t play tiki taka.
No, they played effective and direct high press football without naffing the ball around their own box. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:03 - Aug 19 with 624 views | jack247 |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:45 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
I agree.
The style doesn't seem to be working, but it's only 3 days old. Changing back to the old style is just stupid though. What on earth would be the point in that?
As you say, buying the correct players will take time. We have to give him that time.
Constantly moaning and slagging our manager or team, because they won't play more pragmatically is not going to make them do it.
We must trust in what they are doing and believe they are going to get better.
You said that you believe that the main prblems are off the ball and running at players.
Do you believe these things can be improved in some of the players we have? Or do you think that there is no way to train these things in to players, so we need to buy a new squad? |
I think there’s a mix. Some players will become better at getting into positions to receive the ball. Britton as an example was phenomenal at it. Grimes will always show for the ball in fairness. It’s not just moving, it’s reading play as well. Some won’t and those that don’t probably won’t last. The type of player who can win a tackle, but isn’t always looking to give a teammate an easy option may struggle.
I think we’ll see a higher than usual turnover of players this month and in January. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:08 - Aug 19 with 616 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:56 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
But that’s the academy not our first team. The academy is designed for developing players through their development years.
The first team is to finely tune finished articles and in some cases nurture and improve players still developing. You don’t sign hoofball merchants and turn them into cultured passers in training, sorry but you seem to have a warped view of football.
It’s not how it works. |
Since when have we been a club who sign hoofball merchants?
If our club has become full of these players, where have they come from?
Did Cooper or Monk sign them all, before being able to change our style of play? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:12 - Aug 19 with 610 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:08 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Since when have we been a club who sign hoofball merchants?
If our club has become full of these players, where have they come from?
Did Cooper or Monk sign them all, before being able to change our style of play? |
Where did I say we did?
I made the point that changing someone’s skill set doesn’t come in training. You aren’t going to turn Bennett into a defensive ball playing extraordinaire and you aren’t going to turn Cullen into a strong man striker with vision and specialised passing ability.
They may get a tiny bit better at skills they aren’t very good at… but that’s not really what we are looking for.
It’s a simple point, I don’t know why I’m having to make it so many times. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:16 - Aug 19 with 608 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:03 - Aug 19 by jack247 |
I think there’s a mix. Some players will become better at getting into positions to receive the ball. Britton as an example was phenomenal at it. Grimes will always show for the ball in fairness. It’s not just moving, it’s reading play as well. Some won’t and those that don’t probably won’t last. The type of player who can win a tackle, but isn’t always looking to give a teammate an easy option may struggle.
I think we’ll see a higher than usual turnover of players this month and in January. |
Yeah definitely. The players who cannot adapt will inevitably have to be moved on. But RM can't just guess who these players are. He needs to try things out. He needs to experiment. He needs to lose games. He needs players to make mistakes.
He will soon find out who has glaring holes in their games.
However, he may also find who can do things they were never confident in doing before, or players that may never have even had a chance to play in a way they have done since they were kids.
We will surely find some players that need to go.
But we will surely find some players or skills that we hidden or just needed some practice, or for someone to believe in them.
I loved it when Potter was here.
I am not sure that RM has the taxtical nous that Potter has, but who knows. He's a very young manager, who has a clear way of how he wants to play.
I am very happy we are trying this style of play again, after a couple of seasons of crap.
I was never sure or confident with Cooper in charge, and I was definitely not keen on the style of play, but I was able to give him a chance and back him. Cooper obviously knows more than me, and although I didn't like the way we were playing, of course I gave him a chance. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:17 - Aug 19 with 608 views | vetchonian |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 11:46 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
So you recommend we should either force RM to change his tactics and not to use the passing style until next season? Until then, we play a totally different style, which he may not even be very good at teaching players to play?
If he doesn't agree to do that, should we sack him and bring someone else in, more in the mould of Steve Cooper? |
The way people talk you would swear that we didnt string any passes together under Cooper,
I m doing this and getting pelters but see below the highlights from the game v Stoke at home last season we seem to be passing the ball around...even giving it away under not much pressure...but we are passing it around the back line, passing it through and around midfield...no hoofs though I suspect there were some especially from Bennet if he got under pressure as I can remember him doing so in other games...It seems from this clip we had a "passing " game? maybe its me?
https://www.swanseacity.com/ne | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:24 - Aug 19 with 603 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:17 - Aug 19 by vetchonian |
The way people talk you would swear that we didnt string any passes together under Cooper,
I m doing this and getting pelters but see below the highlights from the game v Stoke at home last season we seem to be passing the ball around...even giving it away under not much pressure...but we are passing it around the back line, passing it through and around midfield...no hoofs though I suspect there were some especially from Bennet if he got under pressure as I can remember him doing so in other games...It seems from this clip we had a "passing " game? maybe its me?
https://www.swanseacity.com/ne |
Agreed.
We did the double over Stoke last year and absolutely battered them at home. They didn’t have a shot on target the whole game, we had 18 goal attempts.
Some of the football played was excellent and completely watertight at the back. But of course there was very little knocking it around at the back under pressure. [Post edited 19 Aug 2021 13:29]
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:33 - Aug 19 with 597 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:12 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Where did I say we did?
I made the point that changing someone’s skill set doesn’t come in training. You aren’t going to turn Bennett into a defensive ball playing extraordinaire and you aren’t going to turn Cullen into a strong man striker with vision and specialised passing ability.
They may get a tiny bit better at skills they aren’t very good at… but that’s not really what we are looking for.
It’s a simple point, I don’t know why I’m having to make it so many times. |
"You don’t sign hoofball merchants and turn them into cultured passers in training".
Insinuating that we have a laod of hoofball merchants, who are unable to adapt.
We don't need a "ball playing extraordinaire" to be effective in this division.
We don't need Cullen to be "a strong man striker with vision and specialised passing ability", as we will probably need an upgrade on him. However, to suggest that all our players are in this category, of untrainable, is silly.
We have plenty of good players.
Do you think they all have been taught only pragmatic ways to play? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:42 - Aug 19 with 587 views | Catullus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:56 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
But that’s the academy not our first team. The academy is designed for developing players through their development years.
The first team is to finely tune finished articles and in some cases nurture and improve players still developing. You don’t sign hoofball merchants and turn them into cultured passers in training, sorry but you seem to have a warped view of football.
It’s not how it works. |
Which of our players are hoofball merchants then? Grimes? Cabango? Fulton? Naughton? Roberts? Bidwell? Downes? Lowe? Piroe? Brandon Cooper?
Bennett, yes ok.
The football under Cooper was negative and boring but it wasn't hoofball until later on, he encouraged passing. Or he did until the last few months when he seemed to give up on trying to win games and seemed to settle for just not losing. Up until Christmas/new year we played pass and move. We were mostly happy with Coopers first season and were Ok with his second until he went so negative. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:43 - Aug 19 with 586 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:33 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
"You don’t sign hoofball merchants and turn them into cultured passers in training".
Insinuating that we have a laod of hoofball merchants, who are unable to adapt.
We don't need a "ball playing extraordinaire" to be effective in this division.
We don't need Cullen to be "a strong man striker with vision and specialised passing ability", as we will probably need an upgrade on him. However, to suggest that all our players are in this category, of untrainable, is silly.
We have plenty of good players.
Do you think they all have been taught only pragmatic ways to play? |
It wasn’t insinuating anything of the sort, it was explaining to you that you don’t change someone skillset in training. Hoofball merchants are cheap because they are technically limited, if what you say is true and any professional footballers can change their skillset in training then that’s the way clubs would go… get 11 hoofballers in and turn them into passing machines in training. Easy.
You clearly don’t understand. Michael Owen didn’t play a pragmatic style of game, he played a “different” game. He used to hang on the shoulders of the last defender and look for through balls. That doesn’t mean he’s pragmatic.
Cullen has very much the same playing skillset as Owen, without the pace. The playing style is very similar, that’s because his strengths lie in those attributes. Doesn’t mean he’s “pragmatic” or “untrainable”… it just means if you are looking for a striker that doesn’t require that skillset then you are best off looking elsewhere.
We do have some good players yes, but we have very few technically gifted tiki taka style players. Training mediocre technical players to be less mediocre technical players doesn’t fill me with excitement. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:10 - Aug 19 with 574 views | BillyChong |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:42 - Aug 19 by Catullus |
Which of our players are hoofball merchants then? Grimes? Cabango? Fulton? Naughton? Roberts? Bidwell? Downes? Lowe? Piroe? Brandon Cooper?
Bennett, yes ok.
The football under Cooper was negative and boring but it wasn't hoofball until later on, he encouraged passing. Or he did until the last few months when he seemed to give up on trying to win games and seemed to settle for just not losing. Up until Christmas/new year we played pass and move. We were mostly happy with Coopers first season and were Ok with his second until he went so negative. |
Cooper changed the course of season one when he went 3-5-2 in the second half of the season. His problem in season two was refusing to change from this formation as soon as other teams found us out. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:12 - Aug 19 with 571 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:42 - Aug 19 by Catullus |
Which of our players are hoofball merchants then? Grimes? Cabango? Fulton? Naughton? Roberts? Bidwell? Downes? Lowe? Piroe? Brandon Cooper?
Bennett, yes ok.
The football under Cooper was negative and boring but it wasn't hoofball until later on, he encouraged passing. Or he did until the last few months when he seemed to give up on trying to win games and seemed to settle for just not losing. Up until Christmas/new year we played pass and move. We were mostly happy with Coopers first season and were Ok with his second until he went so negative. |
Who said they were.
Read the post again. Slowly. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:17 - Aug 19 with 564 views | onehunglow |
I'd ay Grimes is goofball myself.A backpassing master whose stats make him look far better than what he is.
Cabango SHOULD be a hoofball merchant as he hasnt close control,like Bennett. Nothing the matter with that either.
The one bright light I see is Downes but he shouldnt have to cover for Grimes who is one player we need to move on.Sadly,other clubs and fans seem to have worked worked him out a incredibly irrelevant.
We simply need a commanding midfield man. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:23 - Aug 19 with 564 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:17 - Aug 19 by vetchonian |
The way people talk you would swear that we didnt string any passes together under Cooper,
I m doing this and getting pelters but see below the highlights from the game v Stoke at home last season we seem to be passing the ball around...even giving it away under not much pressure...but we are passing it around the back line, passing it through and around midfield...no hoofs though I suspect there were some especially from Bennet if he got under pressure as I can remember him doing so in other games...It seems from this clip we had a "passing " game? maybe its me?
https://www.swanseacity.com/ne |
I'm not saying we can't pass mate. Completely the opposite in fact.
I'm trying to say that we don't need to sell all our players to implement a new way of playing. Others are saying we don't have the players. They can't do it. And even worse, they can't even learn to do it to a reasonable enough standard to compete in this division. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:26 - Aug 19 with 562 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:24 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Agreed.
We did the double over Stoke last year and absolutely battered them at home. They didn’t have a shot on target the whole game, we had 18 goal attempts.
Some of the football played was excellent and completely watertight at the back. But of course there was very little knocking it around at the back under pressure. [Post edited 19 Aug 2021 13:29]
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Wow, what are you on about mate?
You are now saying that we are able to play a passing game and even "absolutely battered them at home".
Make your mind up mate.
Do we have players who can play a passing game or not? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:26 - Aug 19 with 558 views | onehunglow |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:23 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
I'm not saying we can't pass mate. Completely the opposite in fact.
I'm trying to say that we don't need to sell all our players to implement a new way of playing. Others are saying we don't have the players. They can't do it. And even worse, they can't even learn to do it to a reasonable enough standard to compete in this division. |
Nobody is suggesting ALL players need to be sold | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:30 - Aug 19 with 555 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:26 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Wow, what are you on about mate?
You are now saying that we are able to play a passing game and even "absolutely battered them at home".
Make your mind up mate.
Do we have players who can play a passing game or not? |
I’m not with you, you are coming to your own conclusions again.
Playing pragmatically doesn’t mean not passing at all. We are more than capable of stringing some passes together and playing a direct style. As we showed against Stoke last year where we battered them.
We had 49% of the possession and about 200 less passes than last week.
Now if we changed the style to tiki taka last year and decided to make an extra 200 passes with the bulk of that being in and around our own box with our technically limited defenders, do I think we would have battered them? Absolutely not.
So it’s not about making my mind up, it’s about it you understanding what is written. My points are clear. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:42 - Aug 19 with 546 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:43 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
It wasn’t insinuating anything of the sort, it was explaining to you that you don’t change someone skillset in training. Hoofball merchants are cheap because they are technically limited, if what you say is true and any professional footballers can change their skillset in training then that’s the way clubs would go… get 11 hoofballers in and turn them into passing machines in training. Easy.
You clearly don’t understand. Michael Owen didn’t play a pragmatic style of game, he played a “different” game. He used to hang on the shoulders of the last defender and look for through balls. That doesn’t mean he’s pragmatic.
Cullen has very much the same playing skillset as Owen, without the pace. The playing style is very similar, that’s because his strengths lie in those attributes. Doesn’t mean he’s “pragmatic” or “untrainable”… it just means if you are looking for a striker that doesn’t require that skillset then you are best off looking elsewhere.
We do have some good players yes, but we have very few technically gifted tiki taka style players. Training mediocre technical players to be less mediocre technical players doesn’t fill me with excitement. |
Noone is asking a player to become Messi or Pirlo.
They are just asking them to do specific things in specific situations. These things may be different from what they've done for the last few years, but these players have not made it to this level without having some sort of a football brain. They are able to understand instructins and be able to implement them. If not, they are very poor and should be moved on. Simple. I agree with you on that.
I do not agree that this is possible in this transfer window, so I do not agree that we should change to a different way of playing. I do not think RM will either.
Do you think he will?
If not, do you want to sack him, now?
If you don't want to sack him now, will you want to sack him if he's in 17th position at Christmas?
If you do want to sack him at either point, what type of manager would you bring in? | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:45 - Aug 19 with 540 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:30 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
I’m not with you, you are coming to your own conclusions again.
Playing pragmatically doesn’t mean not passing at all. We are more than capable of stringing some passes together and playing a direct style. As we showed against Stoke last year where we battered them.
We had 49% of the possession and about 200 less passes than last week.
Now if we changed the style to tiki taka last year and decided to make an extra 200 passes with the bulk of that being in and around our own box with our technically limited defenders, do I think we would have battered them? Absolutely not.
So it’s not about making my mind up, it’s about it you understanding what is written. My points are clear. |
Na, you're just twisting it mate.
You've been basically saying all along that we do not have the players to play a passing type game. Our players are not technically good enough. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:51 - Aug 19 with 529 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:42 - Aug 19 by jackrmee |
Noone is asking a player to become Messi or Pirlo.
They are just asking them to do specific things in specific situations. These things may be different from what they've done for the last few years, but these players have not made it to this level without having some sort of a football brain. They are able to understand instructins and be able to implement them. If not, they are very poor and should be moved on. Simple. I agree with you on that.
I do not agree that this is possible in this transfer window, so I do not agree that we should change to a different way of playing. I do not think RM will either.
Do you think he will?
If not, do you want to sack him, now?
If you don't want to sack him now, will you want to sack him if he's in 17th position at Christmas?
If you do want to sack him at either point, what type of manager would you bring in? |
Being a specialist doesn’t mean becoming a Messi or a Pirlo.
Rangel was a specialist tiki taka full back, those technical abilities were probably with him for a long time as it’s often the Spanish way. Britton was a specialist tiki taka holding midfield player, when we first came on loan from West Ham his quality on the ball was streets ahead of anything in that division.
In order to succeed we need specialists not people that are mediocre to okay. That doesn’t mean we need Messi and Ronaldo either. However when we were at our effective tiki taka style, do you really think if we were signing a player we would be signing the likes of Cullen, Bennett, Bidwell, Manning, Fulton and Latibeaudiere? Of course not, they would be completely wrong fits.
Far too many hypothetical questions there, when my stance is clear enough.
I do not think that we should risk our league status for a playing style showing no signs of working. If we are heading down that road then the plug needs pulling, whether that’s on the style or the manager isn’t for me to say, I don’t know how adaptable Martin is.
Club first, always…. entertainment a very distant 4th or 5th. | |
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| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:57 - Aug 19 with 522 views | jackrmee |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:51 - Aug 19 by Dr_Parnassus |
Being a specialist doesn’t mean becoming a Messi or a Pirlo.
Rangel was a specialist tiki taka full back, those technical abilities were probably with him for a long time as it’s often the Spanish way. Britton was a specialist tiki taka holding midfield player, when we first came on loan from West Ham his quality on the ball was streets ahead of anything in that division.
In order to succeed we need specialists not people that are mediocre to okay. That doesn’t mean we need Messi and Ronaldo either. However when we were at our effective tiki taka style, do you really think if we were signing a player we would be signing the likes of Cullen, Bennett, Bidwell, Manning, Fulton and Latibeaudiere? Of course not, they would be completely wrong fits.
Far too many hypothetical questions there, when my stance is clear enough.
I do not think that we should risk our league status for a playing style showing no signs of working. If we are heading down that road then the plug needs pulling, whether that’s on the style or the manager isn’t for me to say, I don’t know how adaptable Martin is.
Club first, always…. entertainment a very distant 4th or 5th. |
Ad we aren't signing those types of players now either.
So when would you say to pull the plug then mate?
When we are 10th at Christmas?
17th at Christmas?
Now?
In another 3 weeks, if the players you require haven't been brought in, or the style hasn't been changed by the manager? | |
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