| The big Martin question… 05:26 - Dec 13 with 3200 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Is he learning?
Lots of people have said he is a manager learning his trade, which is probably true to some extent but is he learning the right lessons, or ignoring the really important ones?
I have gone on record several times now and stated that Martin has some excellent potential there if he can move away from his obsession with “dominance” and learn that dominating possession doesn’t mean dominating the opposition or indeed the game.
Having a possession game is great, it can be a very exciting and successful style but it can also be an extremely dull and harmful one depending on how it is implemented.
The words from the MK Dons fans have been ringing in my head this week with regards to this. So I had a quick look back at some match reports and they are scarily similar to what we are seeing now, I stopped looking after a while but felt I could have gone on and kept clicking on what is essentially identi-kit post match pressers and comments.
These could have been written this season and nobody would be able to tell the difference. He genuinely doesn’t seem to understand why his teams lose regularly despite “dominance” and I say that in the loosest possible terms because his version of dominance doesn’t really dominate anything apart from the clock.
It’s all the same stuff, and this goes on and on and on. This was only a few of them.
The theme is the same all the time “we dominated”, “on another night we would have won if x, y, z happened” and “they won because we made errors”.
What concerns me is at no point does it sound like he has looked into why his team make individual errors, why they dominate the possession yet lose or why his teams fail to be consistent.
There doesn’t seem to be a lot of analysis or reflection there, that was no more evident than when he gave this interview stating that there is nothing tactically or structurally wrong (again) “because they dominated”.
It seems to be as far as the reflection and analysis goes. Which may explain why he seems to be stuck in a Groundhog Day loop now for a third season on the bounce, the only difference is the team names.
Happy to take alternative views on this… let’s keep it civil though chaps, this is intended for a real discussion on this subject. [Post edited 13 Dec 2021 5:56]
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| The big Martin question… on 18:09 - Dec 13 with 1201 views | onehunglow |
| The big Martin question… on 17:18 - Dec 13 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
He’s a victim of the system though. He’s a winger and we don’t play wingers. He’s been brought on in the Laird position a few times and struggles to get back for defensive duties.
I’m more confused about the Fulton situation. |
Fulton goes forward and has bottle . |  |
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| The big Martin question… on 18:23 - Dec 13 with 1191 views | dobjack2 |
| The big Martin question… on 17:12 - Dec 13 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
That’s not the problem. We’re getting chances but missing them and having brain farts in defence. Not a good combination. Earlier in the season we were taking our chances and keeping clean sheets.
That’s the difference. The mistakes are of our own making. People go on about teams “finding us out”. Well they haven’t. We’re gifting teams goals and missing gilt edged chances. We are beating ourselves. |
Teams have found us out to a degree, just like any other team. What we are trying to do isn't new and opponents scout us.
They know that we lack strength in depth up front and don't share goals around. Nullify Piroe and Pato and we don't score enough from the chances we make. We also don't move the ball quickly and incisively enough in midfield so give opponents time to reset.
They also know that the way to attack this system when the ball is turned over is to attack the wide centre backs with pace; when we have possession at the back they press high. The drawback for opponents is that if they don't score they expend a lot of energy that will catch up with them later in the game.
As ever goals win games; as you point out we aren't converting enough of the chances we are making and are now making too many errors leading to goals. Left side of defence and a keeper are a priority for this window. No shit Sherlock stuff I know.
When the system works we can look good, trouble is we aren't consistent and need changes in personnel. | | | |
| The big Martin question… on 20:33 - Dec 14 with 1093 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The big Martin question… on 18:23 - Dec 13 by dobjack2 |
Teams have found us out to a degree, just like any other team. What we are trying to do isn't new and opponents scout us.
They know that we lack strength in depth up front and don't share goals around. Nullify Piroe and Pato and we don't score enough from the chances we make. We also don't move the ball quickly and incisively enough in midfield so give opponents time to reset.
They also know that the way to attack this system when the ball is turned over is to attack the wide centre backs with pace; when we have possession at the back they press high. The drawback for opponents is that if they don't score they expend a lot of energy that will catch up with them later in the game.
As ever goals win games; as you point out we aren't converting enough of the chances we are making and are now making too many errors leading to goals. Left side of defence and a keeper are a priority for this window. No shit Sherlock stuff I know.
When the system works we can look good, trouble is we aren't consistent and need changes in personnel. |
To be ''found out'' first you would need to have a relative degree of success with it. This system has never worked in order to be found out.
It's just a really bad way of playing that allows minimal attacks yourself while giving up some serious chances to the opposition. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 21:38 - Dec 14 with 1076 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| The big Martin question… on 20:33 - Dec 14 by Dr_Parnassus |
To be ''found out'' first you would need to have a relative degree of success with it. This system has never worked in order to be found out.
It's just a really bad way of playing that allows minimal attacks yourself while giving up some serious chances to the opposition. |
Swansea must play a possession based passing game. It is in the club's heritage. It is not at all unusual to want to play this way. Many many teams do it in the Premier league and most big teams in Europe.
Neither do Swansea city need exceptionally talented highly costly players to do it. Brendan' s back six included De Vries, Taylor, Monk, Tate, Williams and Rangel. Footballers Allen and Gower in defensive midfield. Barely cost a bean between them. None of Monk Tate or Williams were sprinters.
Swansea should aim high and not accept low aspirations. To be fair the US ownership in conjunction with people labelled sellouts understand the concept of gradual development. Mark Allen has operated at the highest level also. Man City no less.
Swansea city has a number of 20-23 year old's that need to be incorporated soon. This complicates matters for Martin as they will not be experienced. Some have long term contracts. Allen will decide if Martin can deliver this vision. It must be attacking and always threatening opposition defences such that they cannot drop their guard for a second. This was Brendan' s team. I recall them getting hustled out of 4 consecutive away games by the like of Phil Brown and Stan Ternant. This was part of the process.
I believe Swansea need a free kick specialist that can turn possession and pressure into goals. Borini added to Swansea free kick threat and so did Gylfi. There must be player out there that can do this job. 65% possession mean multiple opportunities for top class deliveries. They should scour Europe to find this player. |  |
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| The big Martin question… on 21:48 - Dec 14 with 1072 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The big Martin question… on 21:38 - Dec 14 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Swansea must play a possession based passing game. It is in the club's heritage. It is not at all unusual to want to play this way. Many many teams do it in the Premier league and most big teams in Europe.
Neither do Swansea city need exceptionally talented highly costly players to do it. Brendan' s back six included De Vries, Taylor, Monk, Tate, Williams and Rangel. Footballers Allen and Gower in defensive midfield. Barely cost a bean between them. None of Monk Tate or Williams were sprinters.
Swansea should aim high and not accept low aspirations. To be fair the US ownership in conjunction with people labelled sellouts understand the concept of gradual development. Mark Allen has operated at the highest level also. Man City no less.
Swansea city has a number of 20-23 year old's that need to be incorporated soon. This complicates matters for Martin as they will not be experienced. Some have long term contracts. Allen will decide if Martin can deliver this vision. It must be attacking and always threatening opposition defences such that they cannot drop their guard for a second. This was Brendan' s team. I recall them getting hustled out of 4 consecutive away games by the like of Phil Brown and Stan Ternant. This was part of the process.
I believe Swansea need a free kick specialist that can turn possession and pressure into goals. Borini added to Swansea free kick threat and so did Gylfi. There must be player out there that can do this job. 65% possession mean multiple opportunities for top class deliveries. They should scour Europe to find this player. |
There are many forms of possession and passing styles, having a style that is both doesn't mean it's a good one though, you need to look far deeper than those two markers.
We could set up to keep possession in our own 18 yard box and do 10000 passes a game, it would fulfill both briefs, but would be the worst style in football. It needs to be smarter.
I disagree its in our heritage though, more of a modern adaptation we did for 10 years of a 100 year history.
I'm not against a possession or passing style, but it has to be a good and sensible passing and possession style, like we have done in the past. We have NEVER played this way, for good reason. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 22:13 - Dec 14 with 1061 views | jasper_T |
| The big Martin question… on 17:18 - Dec 13 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
He’s a victim of the system though. He’s a winger and we don’t play wingers. He’s been brought on in the Laird position a few times and struggles to get back for defensive duties.
I’m more confused about the Fulton situation. |
If Whittaker was a conventional winger he'd have less problem playing wingback. The lads a striker, only thing in his mind is scoring goals. Tracking back, linking play, crossing... not what he's programmed to do. He's a Rashford-type player. | | | |
| The big Martin question… on 22:40 - Dec 14 with 1045 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Sadly that is simply ego.
He thinks his way is correct even though the evidence points otherwise. He seems incapable of learning or adapting from that style he has, something I had hopes he would do.
Reminds me of someone on Dragons Den trying to get people to buy into his company and has attached a value and an importance to it that nobody else does. All the signs say ''stop sinking money into it'' yet he is emotionally invested in it and cannot see sense.
We can play a passing and possession game without having to play this exact way, its crippling us. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 23:30 - Dec 14 with 1031 views | AndyCole |
| The big Martin question… on 22:13 - Dec 14 by jasper_T |
If Whittaker was a conventional winger he'd have less problem playing wingback. The lads a striker, only thing in his mind is scoring goals. Tracking back, linking play, crossing... not what he's programmed to do. He's a Rashford-type player. |
Absolutely spot on.
The way in which Martin has failed to redeploy him in his favoured hat trick creating front-line role, after he scored a rare Swans hat trick is shocking, naive and negligent at best.
Scapegoating him in the Bournemuff game was unforgiveable. Someone needs to have a stern word with Martin. In so many ways.
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| The big Martin question… on 23:39 - Dec 14 with 1029 views | AndyCole |
| The big Martin question… on 22:40 - Dec 14 by Dr_Parnassus |
Sadly that is simply ego.
He thinks his way is correct even though the evidence points otherwise. He seems incapable of learning or adapting from that style he has, something I had hopes he would do.
Reminds me of someone on Dragons Den trying to get people to buy into his company and has attached a value and an importance to it that nobody else does. All the signs say ''stop sinking money into it'' yet he is emotionally invested in it and cannot see sense.
We can play a passing and possession game without having to play this exact way, its crippling us. |
Lol.
Loving that Dragon's Den analogy. Priceless.
Brand Martin, in Dragon's Den would be something to behold.
None of the investors would be Martingale-ists. As I'm pretty sure our current Owners aren't either.
Martin is currently under massive massive pressure as I understand it. Wunter even more so. Both out.
My money is on Allen, and a fresh, proper clear out. With Piroe staying, at the forefront in this scenario.
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| The big Martin question… on 09:44 - Dec 15 with 1000 views | onehunglow |
| The big Martin question… on 22:13 - Dec 14 by jasper_T |
If Whittaker was a conventional winger he'd have less problem playing wingback. The lads a striker, only thing in his mind is scoring goals. Tracking back, linking play, crossing... not what he's programmed to do. He's a Rashford-type player. |
Scoring goals/
The batstud.
When others are impressing the coach with their attitude and workrate and how they get the kettle on this lad wants to hoot at goal -Ive seen it myself- and score goals.#
No wonder he is left at home.
I d wager Whittaker doesnt want to pass at all imply shoot at goal when he gets a chance. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 12:24 - Dec 15 with 985 views | BillyChong |
| The big Martin question… on 22:40 - Dec 14 by Dr_Parnassus |
Sadly that is simply ego.
He thinks his way is correct even though the evidence points otherwise. He seems incapable of learning or adapting from that style he has, something I had hopes he would do.
Reminds me of someone on Dragons Den trying to get people to buy into his company and has attached a value and an importance to it that nobody else does. All the signs say ''stop sinking money into it'' yet he is emotionally invested in it and cannot see sense.
We can play a passing and possession game without having to play this exact way, its crippling us. |
Yes, slightly worrying stuff there and backs up suspicions of stubbornness | | | |
| The big Martin question… on 13:38 - Dec 15 with 960 views | sw02sea |
Talking of RM’s stubbornness to have any plan other than “A”, in what football world would you pick 2 of your slowest players as the right and left of a back 3, against a side you knew had pace outside before a ball was kicked ?
And you then say your team played well, except for a few individual mistakes !
75% of aimless passing and 4 goals against was the reality.
I am starting to have very serious doubts about this manager, who in his previous job finished 19th and 13th in a lower division. | | | |
| The big Martin question… on 13:48 - Dec 15 with 957 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The big Martin question… on 13:38 - Dec 15 by sw02sea |
Talking of RM’s stubbornness to have any plan other than “A”, in what football world would you pick 2 of your slowest players as the right and left of a back 3, against a side you knew had pace outside before a ball was kicked ?
And you then say your team played well, except for a few individual mistakes !
75% of aimless passing and 4 goals against was the reality.
I am starting to have very serious doubts about this manager, who in his previous job finished 19th and 13th in a lower division. |
Martin has openly said he doesn’t worry about the opposition and just wants to concentrate on us and play the same way every game.
I guess that’s why we have seen such things as Naughton v Andy Carrol and Naughton v Mitrovic…. as well as what you say with slow center backs being deployed against fast wingers.
There is no adaptation for opposition. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 15:55 - Dec 15 with 920 views | onehunglow |
Some realism beginning to sprout and that s good .
For any manager to state in a public conference that he is happy with his teams performance when they lose 4/1 at home then it should ring alarm bells as
1. He isn’t or
2. He s a liar
1 means he his putting all the blame on players and none on himself which evidences arrogance of the supine kind.
2 means we are being lied to, as we are every week. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 13:13 - Mar 13 with 722 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Bump.
Now more people seem open to critiquing and questioning Martin and his tactics and possibly more importantly his attitude towards his tactics, I think this is an important thread to take in again.
I recommend people re-read the historical articles as a measure of his learning ability when it comes to these tactics. ESPECIALLY the last one on the OP, as I feel that’s a vital issue we are facing with him currently.
This is his third year of deploying these tactics and he is still saying the same things “not sure how we lost, we dominated”, “no issue with our tactics, we dominated”.
The best way to predict the future is to examine the past. [Post edited 13 Mar 2022 13:14]
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| The big Martin question… on 13:44 - Mar 13 with 681 views | onehunglow |
| The big Martin question… on 13:13 - Mar 13 by Dr_Parnassus |
Bump.
Now more people seem open to critiquing and questioning Martin and his tactics and possibly more importantly his attitude towards his tactics, I think this is an important thread to take in again.
I recommend people re-read the historical articles as a measure of his learning ability when it comes to these tactics. ESPECIALLY the last one on the OP, as I feel that’s a vital issue we are facing with him currently.
This is his third year of deploying these tactics and he is still saying the same things “not sure how we lost, we dominated”, “no issue with our tactics, we dominated”.
The best way to predict the future is to examine the past. [Post edited 13 Mar 2022 13:14]
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The way to win is to score more goals than the other team.
Dominance has little to do with it. | |
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| The big Martin question… on 14:52 - Mar 13 with 651 views | A_Fans_Dad |
I can remember quite a few Prem games where we won by a single goal late in the second half after being totally "dominated" by better teams for most of the game. | | | |
| The big Martin question… on 14:59 - Mar 13 with 644 views | majorraglan |
I may have missed it, but was any more light shed on Luke Williams decision to leave? | | | |
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