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Do you still trust the process and have faith in Russell’s system or has that faith disappeared. Interesting discussion on the match day thread so this is the overspill.
I’d like to gauge where the views sit after experiencing a whole season of it.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system?
[Post edited 7 May 2022 15:28]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 13:09 - Jul 19 by jack247
All we can really go on is they were £1-£1.5m players 12 months ago. They aren’t any more. How they would have performed and what they now would be valued at under a different manager or system is pure speculation. To say that it’s in spite of Martin is a bit disingenuous, when it’s happened with 3 players in his only season.
I’ve already told you his playing style will hamper any chance we do have. That’s completely on him.
Anyway, I’ve voted no.
It’s not disingenuous at all. They were £1m players because they were unproven in the English leagues. Do you reckon if Piroe moves on he will suddenly become rubbish? Extremely unlikely.
If you recognise Martin’s playing style is going to hamper the side, you recognise he has fallen out with these players, you recognise he didn’t bring them here… then again, what are we praising Martin for exactly here?
Players will increase in value in every season, have done ever since I’ve started supporting Swansea and will continue to rise in value regardless of who is in charge. Some managers will get the absolute best out of players by playing to their strengths and ensuring they get quality chances and feed off team performances - others will increase their value simply by taking things on their own shoulders despite the teams failings.
Mark Piroe under that.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:08 - Jul 19 by KeithHaynes
The other issue is new players coming in will need time to bed in. Even Allen.
I can’t see the swans starting well because of this and the style of play, but believe it will get better after say four or five games.
I do agree, but again if we drop points early on due to players struggling to adapt to an unusual system, that’s on the manager.
A lot of people quite reasonably cut him slack at the start of last season due to coming in last minute and basically saying up front it would take time. That shouldn’t be the case 12 months in.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:23 - Jul 19 with 985 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 13:31 - Jul 19 by jack247
Personally, I don’t expect it.
If we go back a year or so, I’m sure we would find posts from Dr P stating that Cooper had overachieved by getting to the playoffs and me agreeing with him.
While we need to sell Crown Jewels every season, in theory at least, it gets harder every season. All things being equal, if we don’t go up this time, whoever starts 2023/24 in charge will have a harder task again.
Nobody is saying we should expect it.
What we are saying is we should be there or there abouts, like we were with Cooper both seasons. If we lose to a side that finishes above us in the play offs then so be it. That’s football.
But it is a massive leap from “not expecting it” and saying it’s “fanciful”. I’m not expecting promotion either, but it’s not fanciful in the slightest.
It should be our realistic and achievable aim, no reason we can’t go up at all.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:19 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
It’s not disingenuous at all. They were £1m players because they were unproven in the English leagues. Do you reckon if Piroe moves on he will suddenly become rubbish? Extremely unlikely.
If you recognise Martin’s playing style is going to hamper the side, you recognise he has fallen out with these players, you recognise he didn’t bring them here… then again, what are we praising Martin for exactly here?
Players will increase in value in every season, have done ever since I’ve started supporting Swansea and will continue to rise in value regardless of who is in charge. Some managers will get the absolute best out of players by playing to their strengths and ensuring they get quality chances and feed off team performances - others will increase their value simply by taking things on their own shoulders despite the teams failings.
Mark Piroe under that.
Not at all. At the same time, I don’t think he would have got 22 goals or looked anywhere near as good, had we had him instead of Ayew in Coopers second season, or if he’d stayed at PSV as a squad player.
If we finish well outside the playoffs, but Darling, Wood and Congreve as examples have stellar seasons, we sell one of them for £10m, or two of them for £15m or whatever, bet the board don’t sack him, no matter how disappointed the fans are.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:38 - Jul 19 with 971 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:23 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
Nobody is saying we should expect it.
What we are saying is we should be there or there abouts, like we were with Cooper both seasons. If we lose to a side that finishes above us in the play offs then so be it. That’s football.
But it is a massive leap from “not expecting it” and saying it’s “fanciful”. I’m not expecting promotion either, but it’s not fanciful in the slightest.
It should be our realistic and achievable aim, no reason we can’t go up at all.
Ok fair enough, I won’t argue there. It’s certainly possible and I’ve already said that if we stick to last seasons back three, I think it reduces our chances.
I’ll happily change fanciful to ‘increasingly unlikely with every season we have to sell our best players and replace them cheaply’. We got lucky that Joe Allen wanted to come home this season. Hopefully that negates the Downes loss to a decent extent and allows us to retain our strikers.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:46 - Jul 19 with 961 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:31 - Jul 19 by jack247
Not at all. At the same time, I don’t think he would have got 22 goals or looked anywhere near as good, had we had him instead of Ayew in Coopers second season, or if he’d stayed at PSV as a squad player.
If we finish well outside the playoffs, but Darling, Wood and Congreve as examples have stellar seasons, we sell one of them for £10m, or two of them for £15m or whatever, bet the board don’t sack him, no matter how disappointed the fans are.
I’d say it is far more logical to say he would have scored more than 22 goals in a Cooper side instead of Ayew. We were a more attacking side and averaged a higher xG under Cooper than under Martin. It dipped in the second season because we didn’t have a decent striker, Ayew is not a striker, if we had Piroe then I think we would have been promoted.
That’s why Cooper wanted him.
Cooper had players who were then sold for large mark ups such a Rodon and Lowe - and was given a pittance to spend on new players and still managed to get into the play offs, yet according to many on here he was still pushed. So that logic doesn’t really stack up.
Selling players for large mark ups is something every manager has done and is expected to do, it goes without saying. But their main job is to improve the side and get us promotion, the owners didn’t buy the club for £100m to break even every season.
They will only get their money back if they get promotion, which is unquestionably the aim.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Is it RM's system or the way top football teams play now. The issue is Prem footballers make fewer mistakes because of their quality. Can we find decent possession players who can shrug off mistakes and will the crowd back them? I will for sure as some of the football last season was quality, but some was dire and concerning. Hopefully the new players will improve us.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 15:10 - Jul 19 by krunchykarrot
Is it RM's system or the way top football teams play now. The issue is Prem footballers make fewer mistakes because of their quality. Can we find decent possession players who can shrug off mistakes and will the crowd back them? I will for sure as some of the football last season was quality, but some was dire and concerning. Hopefully the new players will improve us.
No team on the planet plays like us and nobody in the Premier League would ever attempt such a ludicrous style of play.
I just came back from watching Man Utd vs Palace. Quick incisive passing, trying to get forward as quickly as possible, mix of long and short. Played it out from the back but sensibly so.
If they tried to play like Russell Martin, their fans wouldn’t stand for it.
Edit - And before anyone says “it’s because they are top quality players”, the last 30 mins were the kids. The likes of Ethan Laird, Charlie Savage etc yet the style and system was the same.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 15:23]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 14:46 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
I’d say it is far more logical to say he would have scored more than 22 goals in a Cooper side instead of Ayew. We were a more attacking side and averaged a higher xG under Cooper than under Martin. It dipped in the second season because we didn’t have a decent striker, Ayew is not a striker, if we had Piroe then I think we would have been promoted.
That’s why Cooper wanted him.
Cooper had players who were then sold for large mark ups such a Rodon and Lowe - and was given a pittance to spend on new players and still managed to get into the play offs, yet according to many on here he was still pushed. So that logic doesn’t really stack up.
Selling players for large mark ups is something every manager has done and is expected to do, it goes without saying. But their main job is to improve the side and get us promotion, the owners didn’t buy the club for £100m to break even every season.
They will only get their money back if they get promotion, which is unquestionably the aim.
Ayew and Lowe had to run the channels and drop into midfield to create their own chances. I can’t see many centre forwards playing that role and looking as good as Piroe did last season.
Yes, selling players with big mark ups is part of the job. Three who increased your value that much in a season is impressive, however much you don’t want to give Martin any credit for it. The fact that you are using Lowe, who we made about £700k on as an example illustrates that.
Obviously promotion is the best scenario. I’m not defending Martin there, we could have done better last season without a doubt. Our owners aren’t going to put all their eggs in that basket though, especially when they can’t finance it without hampering the squad.
I’ll stand by saying that if we have a similar season to last, in terms of playing style, league position and selling a £1.5m player for £9m, while dramatically increasing the value of a couple more, the owners won’t sack him.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 15:35 - Jul 19 with 923 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 15:22 - Jul 19 by jack247
Ayew and Lowe had to run the channels and drop into midfield to create their own chances. I can’t see many centre forwards playing that role and looking as good as Piroe did last season.
Yes, selling players with big mark ups is part of the job. Three who increased your value that much in a season is impressive, however much you don’t want to give Martin any credit for it. The fact that you are using Lowe, who we made about £700k on as an example illustrates that.
Obviously promotion is the best scenario. I’m not defending Martin there, we could have done better last season without a doubt. Our owners aren’t going to put all their eggs in that basket though, especially when they can’t finance it without hampering the squad.
I’ll stand by saying that if we have a similar season to last, in terms of playing style, league position and selling a £1.5m player for £9m, while dramatically increasing the value of a couple more, the owners won’t sack him.
They did, that’s because the team was unbalanced as we had no out and out striker. Had we played Piroe up front the likes of Lowe would be playing with his natural width and creating chances for Piroe. To suggest Piroe only scored a load of goals due to Russell Martin’s system is crazy.
He often seemed so frustrated by the lack of ball he was getting he would smash it in from 20 yards as soon as he got it. He carried the team on his back often ditching the passing philosophy. Have we had a striker score so many long range efforts in a season? I can’t remember one.
That was through necessity rather than design.
It’s not about not wanting to give him credit, it’s about not agreeing he deserves any. His style was ludicrous, hampered a lot of our players including those mentioned and fell out with most of them. To say it was down to him is laughable.
Lowe was brought in by Cooper, transformed from a winger to a striker and his goals were very much part of the style we were playing. Team goals that he was the recipient of. I have two examples, the reason you ignored Rodon may illustrate the point that you are selectively looking at things. I could have given Conor Gallagher, Rhian Brewster and Marc Guehi too - which proved Coopers ability to increase a players value - yet wasn’t enough to get him support from the owners… which is the point you made.
Under Cooper we as a club were overachieving. 10th to 6th and 4th - it’s perfectly fair to say good performances were down to Cooper. Languishing in 15th, playing players out of position, dropping them and generally falling out with them would be reasonable to suggest some performed well in spite of him.
You can stand by what you like, however history suggests that players increase in value regardless of who is in charge. It’s par for the course. If they don’t sack him, it’s far more likely it’s due to a reluctance to pay him off as opposed to a misplaced theory that only Russell Martin has the special power to make a player or two increase in value.
They will be perfectly aware it’s a normal thing regardless of who is in charge and not something to hamper the club over by keeping a sub par manager.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 15:35]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 15:35 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
They did, that’s because the team was unbalanced as we had no out and out striker. Had we played Piroe up front the likes of Lowe would be playing with his natural width and creating chances for Piroe. To suggest Piroe only scored a load of goals due to Russell Martin’s system is crazy.
He often seemed so frustrated by the lack of ball he was getting he would smash it in from 20 yards as soon as he got it. He carried the team on his back often ditching the passing philosophy. Have we had a striker score so many long range efforts in a season? I can’t remember one.
That was through necessity rather than design.
It’s not about not wanting to give him credit, it’s about not agreeing he deserves any. His style was ludicrous, hampered a lot of our players including those mentioned and fell out with most of them. To say it was down to him is laughable.
Lowe was brought in by Cooper, transformed from a winger to a striker and his goals were very much part of the style we were playing. Team goals that he was the recipient of. I have two examples, the reason you ignored Rodon may illustrate the point that you are selectively looking at things. I could have given Conor Gallagher, Rhian Brewster and Marc Guehi too - which proved Coopers ability to increase a players value - yet wasn’t enough to get him support from the owners… which is the point you made.
Under Cooper we as a club were overachieving. 10th to 6th and 4th - it’s perfectly fair to say good performances were down to Cooper. Languishing in 15th, playing players out of position, dropping them and generally falling out with them would be reasonable to suggest some performed well in spite of him.
You can stand by what you like, however history suggests that players increase in value regardless of who is in charge. It’s par for the course. If they don’t sack him, it’s far more likely it’s due to a reluctance to pay him off as opposed to a misplaced theory that only Russell Martin has the special power to make a player or two increase in value.
They will be perfectly aware it’s a normal thing regardless of who is in charge and not something to hamper the club over by keeping a sub par manager.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 15:35]
I ignored Rodon because he was in the same ball park as Downes and what I’d expect to get for Piroe and Obafemi. He played as many games for Potter as he did for Cooper, but I’d never suggest Cooper didn’t aid his development or increase his price tag. Lowe just seemed the odd one out of the five as his value didn’t increase anywhere near as much as the other four.
As for Gallagher, Brewster and Guehi, absolutely. I was one of the few who agreed with you that in a promotion push, I’d rather loan those players than play the likes of Byers, who were decent players but not Championship level game changers. That wasn’t the point I made though, increasing loan players value only benefits us in terms of Chelsea or whoever being keen to loan to us again. It’s totally different to buying a player for £1-2m and selling him for £9-10m12 months later.
Back to the Ayew comparison, he seemed frustrated a lot more frequently than Piroe over the course of their respective seasons.
I haven’t disputed good performances being down to Cooper. I haven’t disputed 6th and 4th were overachieving. I haven’t defended last seasons playing style. What I have said, is that playoffs this season would also be overachieving, particularly as we lost Ayew, Guehi and Gallagher since then and spent slightly less than we took on players.
Edit - can’t remember if it was Coopers first or second season, but we had Gyökeres on loan. Cooper didn’t rate him, in fairness, I didn’t either, but it turned out we did have a striker, just didn’t use him as well as Coventry did.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 16:05]
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 16:17 - Jul 19 with 878 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 16:01 - Jul 19 by jack247
I ignored Rodon because he was in the same ball park as Downes and what I’d expect to get for Piroe and Obafemi. He played as many games for Potter as he did for Cooper, but I’d never suggest Cooper didn’t aid his development or increase his price tag. Lowe just seemed the odd one out of the five as his value didn’t increase anywhere near as much as the other four.
As for Gallagher, Brewster and Guehi, absolutely. I was one of the few who agreed with you that in a promotion push, I’d rather loan those players than play the likes of Byers, who were decent players but not Championship level game changers. That wasn’t the point I made though, increasing loan players value only benefits us in terms of Chelsea or whoever being keen to loan to us again. It’s totally different to buying a player for £1-2m and selling him for £9-10m12 months later.
Back to the Ayew comparison, he seemed frustrated a lot more frequently than Piroe over the course of their respective seasons.
I haven’t disputed good performances being down to Cooper. I haven’t disputed 6th and 4th were overachieving. I haven’t defended last seasons playing style. What I have said, is that playoffs this season would also be overachieving, particularly as we lost Ayew, Guehi and Gallagher since then and spent slightly less than we took on players.
Edit - can’t remember if it was Coopers first or second season, but we had Gyökeres on loan. Cooper didn’t rate him, in fairness, I didn’t either, but it turned out we did have a striker, just didn’t use him as well as Coventry did.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 16:05]
I would suggest that.
Rodon was always going to be a £10m player which is why Man City were sniffing around him when he was in our youth set up. He was thrust into our team and thrived because he’s a quality player, that isn’t down to any manager in particular.
Same goes for Piroe, it’s ludicrous to suggest his success is down to Martin when he didn’t even want him, fell out with him, they don’t get on and he seems to buck the trend of the style he is implementing on the squad.
Gallagher, Brewster and Guehi can be put down to Cooper although again they were always going to be worth a lot of money. But Cooper clearly nurtured them all in various ways and worked with them to get the best out of them, as per his history and successes with each of them.
The ability to increase a players value is the point you made. If Cooper can do it for loan players then he can do it for players that the owners are willing to spend on (Cooper never got that luxury). So if that was their main remit, they would have fought tooth and nail to back him and keep him… yet they didn’t.
Ayew was indeed frustrated a lot, that’s because he’s not a striker and had to play there. Had we got the benefit of Piroe then he wouldn’t have had to and Piroe would have benefited from better and more chances created under Cooper than under Martin.
I haven’t said you have denied any of those things. My point was that if a team is playing well due to the manager then it’s reasonable to suggest the players individually are benefiting from those team performances.
It’s a world away from a team languishing in 15th, key players falling out with a manager, playing a ludicrous style that doesn’t suit them and them still putting in individual performances due to their talent and increasing their value.
It was Coopers second season. We didn’t use him because he was rubbish, ironically neither did Coventry when they had him that season.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 16:30]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 16:17 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
I would suggest that.
Rodon was always going to be a £10m player which is why Man City were sniffing around him when he was in our youth set up. He was thrust into our team and thrived because he’s a quality player, that isn’t down to any manager in particular.
Same goes for Piroe, it’s ludicrous to suggest his success is down to Martin when he didn’t even want him, fell out with him, they don’t get on and he seems to buck the trend of the style he is implementing on the squad.
Gallagher, Brewster and Guehi can be put down to Cooper although again they were always going to be worth a lot of money. But Cooper clearly nurtured them all in various ways and worked with them to get the best out of them, as per his history and successes with each of them.
The ability to increase a players value is the point you made. If Cooper can do it for loan players then he can do it for players that the owners are willing to spend on (Cooper never got that luxury). So if that was their main remit, they would have fought tooth and nail to back him and keep him… yet they didn’t.
Ayew was indeed frustrated a lot, that’s because he’s not a striker and had to play there. Had we got the benefit of Piroe then he wouldn’t have had to and Piroe would have benefited from better and more chances created under Cooper than under Martin.
I haven’t said you have denied any of those things. My point was that if a team is playing well due to the manager then it’s reasonable to suggest the players individually are benefiting from those team performances.
It’s a world away from a team languishing in 15th, key players falling out with a manager, playing a ludicrous style that doesn’t suit them and them still putting in individual performances due to their talent and increasing their value.
It was Coopers second season. We didn’t use him because he was rubbish, ironically neither did Coventry when they had him that season.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 16:30]
Gyökeres played 19 games in half a season for Coventry, they signed him permanently that summer.
Re. Increasing players value, I said Martin had done a great job in turning £5m worth of signings into £30/35m worth of assets inside a season. That’s not run of the mill. I didn’t say Cooper couldn’t do that, we don’t know, he wasn’t given the opportunity.
There has certainly been a shift in focus, look at the loans brought in under Cooper - Gibbs-White and Brewster were already known quantities with PL experience. Guehi and Gallagher, obviously his contacts, were elite players, future England internationals.
At the same time, with the exception of Lowe, we didn’t start signing players with decent sell on potential until near the end of his tenure.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 17:57 - Jul 19 with 820 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 15:18 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
No team on the planet plays like us and nobody in the Premier League would ever attempt such a ludicrous style of play.
I just came back from watching Man Utd vs Palace. Quick incisive passing, trying to get forward as quickly as possible, mix of long and short. Played it out from the back but sensibly so.
If they tried to play like Russell Martin, their fans wouldn’t stand for it.
Edit - And before anyone says “it’s because they are top quality players”, the last 30 mins were the kids. The likes of Ethan Laird, Charlie Savage etc yet the style and system was the same.
[Post edited 19 Jul 2022 15:23]
Cant comment on the new Man U boss yet but the top six sides all played out from the GK. Ill admit they mix it up more at times but possession is king. I like the look of Hannibal Mejbri did he play, hell of an engine and quality.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 23:22 - Jul 19 with 783 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 16:46 - Jul 19 by jack247
Gyökeres played 19 games in half a season for Coventry, they signed him permanently that summer.
Re. Increasing players value, I said Martin had done a great job in turning £5m worth of signings into £30/35m worth of assets inside a season. That’s not run of the mill. I didn’t say Cooper couldn’t do that, we don’t know, he wasn’t given the opportunity.
There has certainly been a shift in focus, look at the loans brought in under Cooper - Gibbs-White and Brewster were already known quantities with PL experience. Guehi and Gallagher, obviously his contacts, were elite players, future England internationals.
At the same time, with the exception of Lowe, we didn’t start signing players with decent sell on potential until near the end of his tenure.
But misleading there 24/7, let’s not fall into old habits.
Gyokeres started 7 games for Coventry of their remaining 23 that season, yet was available for them all. He didn’t get off the bench for almost 20% of them. They clearly didn’t think he was ready to start regularly for them that season either - let alone at a club pushing to get into the Premier League.
You did say that yes, people seem to be disagreeing with you that Martin turned them into those players. Again, are you suggesting these players only had their ability unlocked by Martin’s incredible system then? Or wonderful attacking wisdom? Or do you think it’s far more likely they are good talented players anyway?
Laird, Williams and Wolff. 3 elite loans in a season also for Martin, he just didn’t get the best out of them. I saw Laird play for Man Utd last night, Wolff is worth close to £10m and Williams has Premier League and Champions League experience with Liverpool, he’s started a fair few Premier League games and is probably the most elite out of any loan brought in by Cooper and Martin combined.
Martin however got the luxury of the financial benefits of not having Andre Ayew weighing down the purse strings and was actually able to bring in some permanent players.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 23:22 - Jul 19 by Dr_Parnassus
But misleading there 24/7, let’s not fall into old habits.
Gyokeres started 7 games for Coventry of their remaining 23 that season, yet was available for them all. He didn’t get off the bench for almost 20% of them. They clearly didn’t think he was ready to start regularly for them that season either - let alone at a club pushing to get into the Premier League.
You did say that yes, people seem to be disagreeing with you that Martin turned them into those players. Again, are you suggesting these players only had their ability unlocked by Martin’s incredible system then? Or wonderful attacking wisdom? Or do you think it’s far more likely they are good talented players anyway?
Laird, Williams and Wolff. 3 elite loans in a season also for Martin, he just didn’t get the best out of them. I saw Laird play for Man Utd last night, Wolff is worth close to £10m and Williams has Premier League and Champions League experience with Liverpool, he’s started a fair few Premier League games and is probably the most elite out of any loan brought in by Cooper and Martin combined.
Martin however got the luxury of the financial benefits of not having Andre Ayew weighing down the purse strings and was actually able to bring in some permanent players.
Are we suggesting that Williams (on loan at Blackpool), Laird (who Martin actually got a lot more out of than Parker and will almost certainly be on loan in the championship again this season) and £10m Wolf are comparable quality to Gibbs-White, who Everton had an opening bid of £25m for rejected, £18m Guehi and Conor Gallagher, who has asked not to go out on loan because he thinks he is ready for the first team, with the last two being full England internationals?
Ours weren’t elite loans, they were just loans from elite clubs.
I’ve said Martins style of play gives them the platform to have the seasons they did. I’m not disputing that Piroe would have looked better in the second half of the season if he hadn’t been pushed back to accommodate Obafemi.
If he gets no credit for that in your book, given that we have brought in three players around the million mark and increased their combined value six or seven fold, you must think it’s quite straightforward. Do you expect us to do that more often than not from now on? Regardless of who is in charge.
We lost a third of our goals in Ayew, as well as Guehi and Gallagher.
I agree the saving on wages afforded the club a luxury though, they are now able to sign players for that kind of money and speculate on developing them into lucrative assets. Subject to selling the likes of Lowe and Roberts of course. I think we’ll see more of it in the future, whether we increase three players values that much in a season consistently remains to be seen.
Cooper had the option to do this, but resigned.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 8:20]
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 10:18 - Jul 20 with 691 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 08:13 - Jul 20 by jack247
Are we suggesting that Williams (on loan at Blackpool), Laird (who Martin actually got a lot more out of than Parker and will almost certainly be on loan in the championship again this season) and £10m Wolf are comparable quality to Gibbs-White, who Everton had an opening bid of £25m for rejected, £18m Guehi and Conor Gallagher, who has asked not to go out on loan because he thinks he is ready for the first team, with the last two being full England internationals?
Ours weren’t elite loans, they were just loans from elite clubs.
I’ve said Martins style of play gives them the platform to have the seasons they did. I’m not disputing that Piroe would have looked better in the second half of the season if he hadn’t been pushed back to accommodate Obafemi.
If he gets no credit for that in your book, given that we have brought in three players around the million mark and increased their combined value six or seven fold, you must think it’s quite straightforward. Do you expect us to do that more often than not from now on? Regardless of who is in charge.
We lost a third of our goals in Ayew, as well as Guehi and Gallagher.
I agree the saving on wages afforded the club a luxury though, they are now able to sign players for that kind of money and speculate on developing them into lucrative assets. Subject to selling the likes of Lowe and Roberts of course. I think we’ll see more of it in the future, whether we increase three players values that much in a season consistently remains to be seen.
Cooper had the option to do this, but resigned.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 8:20]
I think Coopers reason for resigning ( claiming constructive dissmissal) because the club priced him out of potential moves to Palace by asking silly amounts of compensation but that is something we will possibly ever find out.
For me MArtin failed to get the best out of LAird or Williams ( not forgetting Williams had Champions and Premier league experience before joining us) .As an ex defender Martin seemed incapable of bringin these players on....Why did he insist on playing right footed Cabango on the left and left footed Williams on the right.....previously both these players had spent the previous season playing on thier "natural" sides .
We can debate Martin's impact on improving the value of Piroe and Downes till the cows come home...we will all have different opinons for me especially with Piroe MArtin has had little impact look at his stats Piroe has scored lots of goals at pre senior level. When he stepped up to senior football he scored 4 goals in 512 minutes ( about 5.5 games) of Eredvise footabll and 2 goals and 2 assists in 8 games in the Kenken Kampion Division so whilst he was not tearing things up those are not bad stats.
So this thread has evolved into how this style whilst will not get us promoted or challenging for honours is good to develop players for sales at profit.
Im not sure that is what the ownership wants I believe they want us in the PL thats were the riches are. In time the fans will will drop off if we are a mid table side still playing Martins uninspiring brand of football ....without Piroe last season we would have lost even more games...how easy will it be to find an equivalent replacement?
Opinions and footie fans eh...but at least as Keith says this is good natured objective debate with no personal slurs
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 08:13 - Jul 20 by jack247
Are we suggesting that Williams (on loan at Blackpool), Laird (who Martin actually got a lot more out of than Parker and will almost certainly be on loan in the championship again this season) and £10m Wolf are comparable quality to Gibbs-White, who Everton had an opening bid of £25m for rejected, £18m Guehi and Conor Gallagher, who has asked not to go out on loan because he thinks he is ready for the first team, with the last two being full England internationals?
Ours weren’t elite loans, they were just loans from elite clubs.
I’ve said Martins style of play gives them the platform to have the seasons they did. I’m not disputing that Piroe would have looked better in the second half of the season if he hadn’t been pushed back to accommodate Obafemi.
If he gets no credit for that in your book, given that we have brought in three players around the million mark and increased their combined value six or seven fold, you must think it’s quite straightforward. Do you expect us to do that more often than not from now on? Regardless of who is in charge.
We lost a third of our goals in Ayew, as well as Guehi and Gallagher.
I agree the saving on wages afforded the club a luxury though, they are now able to sign players for that kind of money and speculate on developing them into lucrative assets. Subject to selling the likes of Lowe and Roberts of course. I think we’ll see more of it in the future, whether we increase three players values that much in a season consistently remains to be seen.
Cooper had the option to do this, but resigned.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 8:20]
Absolutely yes, they are certainly comparable.
However you are making the mistake of comparing them at different stages of their loans and judging on them on how they fared after they left as opposed to when they came here.
- Guehi was a complete unheard of, many wanted to send him back after half a season. - Gallagher had half a season at Charlton, there wasn’t great excitement at his arrival. - Brewster was tipped for a decent career but hadn’t really shown anything at Liverpool to warrant that.
Williams had started multiple Premier League games for Liverpool and also had a run of Champions League starts and was being talked about as Van Dijks regular partner.
Williams was far more elite a loan than any of the above that Cooper brought in. Him not working out doesn’t detract from that, because we are discussing the approach not the result.
You don’t decide who is elite and who isn’t after the fact, because then you deciding an approach on hindsight. The approach to bring in Williams and Laird was exactly the same as the approach to bring in Guehi and Brewster. No difference at all.
In what way does Martin’s style give Piroe the platform to perform? He isn’t scoring due to the fruits of the system, he’s scoring largely due to breaking away from it and having solo pieces of brilliance. I repeat, they don’t get on - Piroe dislikes Martin intensely, this is a fact. Doesn’t sound like he’s too appreciative of his style of play or credit him for his ability shown last season.
Is bringing in players and them increasing is absolutely run of the mill. It’s by design, not by surprise. We sign players under their market value, in the right age bracket - some succeed, some don’t. For every Piroe, Downes, McBurnie and Dan James there is a Fisher, Whittaker, Asoro, Celina etc
You are acting as if it’s completely out of the ordinary to have a season where a players value has dramatically increased. I struggle to think of a season where this hasn’t happened. If we brought in Bob Bradley tomorrow I would still expect Darling and Congreve to increase in value - wouldn’t you?
To credit Bob Bradley with their talent however would be laughable.
We lose a large percentage of our goals every season. We lost a similar amount when we got rid of McBurnie and James when Cooper came in. He rectified that by bringing in the right players with the tiny budget he was given. That’s management. Not only that, he got the team immediately outperforming the one he inherited.
Did he resign or was he sacked? Seems to change to suit whatever narrative is being pushed at the time.
Let’s not even start comparing Cooper and Martin, there is no comparison there to make. The difference in level of ability is frightening.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 11:17]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 10:55 - Jul 20 by vetchonian
I think Coopers reason for resigning ( claiming constructive dissmissal) because the club priced him out of potential moves to Palace by asking silly amounts of compensation but that is something we will possibly ever find out.
For me MArtin failed to get the best out of LAird or Williams ( not forgetting Williams had Champions and Premier league experience before joining us) .As an ex defender Martin seemed incapable of bringin these players on....Why did he insist on playing right footed Cabango on the left and left footed Williams on the right.....previously both these players had spent the previous season playing on thier "natural" sides .
We can debate Martin's impact on improving the value of Piroe and Downes till the cows come home...we will all have different opinons for me especially with Piroe MArtin has had little impact look at his stats Piroe has scored lots of goals at pre senior level. When he stepped up to senior football he scored 4 goals in 512 minutes ( about 5.5 games) of Eredvise footabll and 2 goals and 2 assists in 8 games in the Kenken Kampion Division so whilst he was not tearing things up those are not bad stats.
So this thread has evolved into how this style whilst will not get us promoted or challenging for honours is good to develop players for sales at profit.
Im not sure that is what the ownership wants I believe they want us in the PL thats were the riches are. In time the fans will will drop off if we are a mid table side still playing Martins uninspiring brand of football ....without Piroe last season we would have lost even more games...how easy will it be to find an equivalent replacement?
Opinions and footie fans eh...but at least as Keith says this is good natured objective debate with no personal slurs
Spot on.
Had Cooper continued his trend of getting the best out of young talent and Williams went from strength to strength, no doubt he would be labelled by 247 as an “elite loan” too. It’s simply revisionism.
Williams had far higher pedigree than any player Cooper brought in.
He had been a part of 26 Premier League match day squads. 9 appearances and started 7 of them. He had been a part of 11 Champions League match day squads. 6 appearances and started 4 of them.
It’s quite simple.
Martin horrifically underperformed last season and people are trying to make excuses pretending that some players increasing in value despite such an awful season was down to Martin. It’s ludicrous.
We can keep going on and on. Every season players increase in value, some dramatically if we snare them for the right price.
One of the worst seasons we had in the Premier League we still saw large increases in Mawson, Fabianski and Bartley. About 25m of profit… attributing that to the manager as opposed to the talent of the player however most certainly is “fanciful”.
They shone despite the huge failings of the team, same as last season.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 11:12 - Jul 20 by Dr_Parnassus
Absolutely yes, they are certainly comparable.
However you are making the mistake of comparing them at different stages of their loans and judging on them on how they fared after they left as opposed to when they came here.
- Guehi was a complete unheard of, many wanted to send him back after half a season. - Gallagher had half a season at Charlton, there wasn’t great excitement at his arrival. - Brewster was tipped for a decent career but hadn’t really shown anything at Liverpool to warrant that.
Williams had started multiple Premier League games for Liverpool and also had a run of Champions League starts and was being talked about as Van Dijks regular partner.
Williams was far more elite a loan than any of the above that Cooper brought in. Him not working out doesn’t detract from that, because we are discussing the approach not the result.
You don’t decide who is elite and who isn’t after the fact, because then you deciding an approach on hindsight. The approach to bring in Williams and Laird was exactly the same as the approach to bring in Guehi and Brewster. No difference at all.
In what way does Martin’s style give Piroe the platform to perform? He isn’t scoring due to the fruits of the system, he’s scoring largely due to breaking away from it and having solo pieces of brilliance. I repeat, they don’t get on - Piroe dislikes Martin intensely, this is a fact. Doesn’t sound like he’s too appreciative of his style of play or credit him for his ability shown last season.
Is bringing in players and them increasing is absolutely run of the mill. It’s by design, not by surprise. We sign players under their market value, in the right age bracket - some succeed, some don’t. For every Piroe, Downes, McBurnie and Dan James there is a Fisher, Whittaker, Asoro, Celina etc
You are acting as if it’s completely out of the ordinary to have a season where a players value has dramatically increased. I struggle to think of a season where this hasn’t happened. If we brought in Bob Bradley tomorrow I would still expect Darling and Congreve to increase in value - wouldn’t you?
To credit Bob Bradley with their talent however would be laughable.
We lose a large percentage of our goals every season. We lost a similar amount when we got rid of McBurnie and James when Cooper came in. He rectified that by bringing in the right players with the tiny budget he was given. That’s management. Not only that, he got the team immediately outperforming the one he inherited.
Did he resign or was he sacked? Seems to change to suit whatever narrative is being pushed at the time.
Let’s not even start comparing Cooper and Martin, there is no comparison there to make. The difference in level of ability is frightening.
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 11:17]
Marc Guehi was an England under 21 international before he came here. You may not have heard of him, that doesn’t make him an unknown. So was Conor Gallagher.
Of course not every player we sign in that bracket works out. There’s speculation involved. If you’re selling Downes for that kind of profit, you can stomach losing value on the odd player.
If we brought in Bob Bradley, would Congreve or Darlings value increase? I doubt it if we played like we did last time he was here. I highly doubt anyones value increased in the 10 games or so he was in charge. I think both values will increase significantly under Martin.
Paraphrasing, but you said that getting Ayew off the books afforded Martin the opportunity to sign some permanent players (which I agree with). I was simply pointing out that Cooper also had that opportunity (think we signed Piroe while he was still here) and chose to walk away. That’s not comparing managerial abilities, it’s stating a fact.
I haven’t been reading much on here lately, if Cooper was sacked, it’s certainly news to me.
I’m going to leave it there. I agree with you that if we persist with last seasons playing style it will hamper us significantly.
You won’t convince me that Martin doesn’t deserve any credit for improving squad value. I also believe there has been more of a shift towards that approach since Ayew came off the wage bill and we sold off most of our top academy graduates.
I won’t convince you he deserves credit for anything at all.
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 12:05 - Jul 20 with 594 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 11:36 - Jul 20 by Dr_Parnassus
Spot on.
Had Cooper continued his trend of getting the best out of young talent and Williams went from strength to strength, no doubt he would be labelled by 247 as an “elite loan” too. It’s simply revisionism.
Williams had far higher pedigree than any player Cooper brought in.
He had been a part of 26 Premier League match day squads. 9 appearances and started 7 of them. He had been a part of 11 Champions League match day squads. 6 appearances and started 4 of them.
It’s quite simple.
Martin horrifically underperformed last season and people are trying to make excuses pretending that some players increasing in value despite such an awful season was down to Martin. It’s ludicrous.
We can keep going on and on. Every season players increase in value, some dramatically if we snare them for the right price.
One of the worst seasons we had in the Premier League we still saw large increases in Mawson, Fabianski and Bartley. About 25m of profit… attributing that to the manager as opposed to the talent of the player however most certainly is “fanciful”.
They shone despite the huge failings of the team, same as last season.
So since we’ve been in the Championship, 3 academy graduates who were pretty much Championship ready, Lowe (who we bought for £800k and sold for £1.5m, 4 top prospects from PL teams and the 3 last season.
Edit.
Actually am going to log out now. Be interesting to see if we’re having a similar conversation about the likes of Darling this time next year
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 12:08]
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Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 12:15 - Jul 20 with 572 views
Do you still have faith in Russell Martin’s system? on 12:05 - Jul 20 by jack247
So since we’ve been in the Championship, 3 academy graduates who were pretty much Championship ready, Lowe (who we bought for £800k and sold for £1.5m, 4 top prospects from PL teams and the 3 last season.
Edit.
Actually am going to log out now. Be interesting to see if we’re having a similar conversation about the likes of Darling this time next year
[Post edited 20 Jul 2022 12:08]
What a fantastic thread, from people who know so much more about the club than me. I’m not going to contribute, way out of my depth. I’ll just read it, proper education
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