| What An Overreaction By Some 06:27 - Aug 17 with 4128 views | STID2017 |
The reaction to some on here ( especially AC ) is totally stunning.
The calling on multiple posts (many by AC, when one would have done ) for Martin's head, blaming him for the failure by the players to not only put the game to bed but then to hold on to a 2 - 0 lead shows the existence of an agenda on here by a few to blame the manager for everything.
Every player left on the field is a professional footballer and should know what it takes to kill the game and see it out.
We should have been out of sight well before the start of added time.
Any manager going into added time 2 - 0 up would be justified in feeling he had done enough and would rightly expect a victory.
The players have to take full responsibility for this result. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:13 - Aug 18 with 781 views | Sirjohnalot |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 23:34 - Aug 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
If it’s the managers responsibility in the first 5 minutes, it’s also the managers responsibility in the last 5 minutes.
They are playing under instruction, this is professional football. They don’t play as they want to play, they play as the managers tells them to.
That’s the biggest misconception people tend to have, that footballers have a mind of their own. Those that do, don’t tend to last very long in a side. |
There is nothing to suggest that Martin told them when they are 2-0, then 2-1 up in injury to play the way they did. That’s s big assumption |  | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:22 - Aug 18 with 766 views | onehunglow |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:13 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
There is nothing to suggest that Martin told them when they are 2-0, then 2-1 up in injury to play the way they did. That’s s big assumption |
Morning Jon/John
I tend to agree with your there.
I feel the Martin mentality has been imbued into these players and they default when under pressure. As they do. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:24 - Aug 18 with 766 views | RichardO |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:18 - Aug 17 by KeithHaynes |
Can’t field a team that lasts ninety minutes is a huge issue.
Allen, Ntcham etc. There’s others., |
Was surprised to see Ntcham taken off as he seemed to be playing well and still offering options for link up play enabling the team to get further up the park, Allen was also an enabler but give his previous hamstring injury, wise to limit his time during comeback.
If the team is playing well make the substitutions which may be needed but don't pull players out of positions that were working for them and the team, 1 for 1 subs to reduce the impact where possible. | | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:00 - Aug 18 with 735 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:13 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
There is nothing to suggest that Martin told them when they are 2-0, then 2-1 up in injury to play the way they did. That’s s big assumption |
But that’s his job?
It’s more of an assumption to assume he hasn’t done his job by instructing them how to play and leaving it up to them, surely?
It’s equally concerning (possibly more so) if he didn’t tell them how to play when defending a lead in injury time, especially considering we gave away a 2-0 lead in injury time a matter of a week or two ago against Oxford, to compound further injury time collapses at the end of last season. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:25 - Aug 18 with 726 views | vetchonian |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:24 - Aug 18 by RichardO |
Was surprised to see Ntcham taken off as he seemed to be playing well and still offering options for link up play enabling the team to get further up the park, Allen was also an enabler but give his previous hamstring injury, wise to limit his time during comeback.
If the team is playing well make the substitutions which may be needed but don't pull players out of positions that were working for them and the team, 1 for 1 subs to reduce the impact where possible. |
Second time in a week he has done this...at Oxford made subs subs in defence and swopped folks around resulting in the draw then does the same Tuesday a week later! Does he not learn? | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:28 - Aug 18 with 721 views | raynor94 |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:13 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
There is nothing to suggest that Martin told them when they are 2-0, then 2-1 up in injury to play the way they did. That’s s big assumption |
Exactly, after the first goal, we should have just kept possession for 2 minutes.
Hence Martin going nuts when we gave possession away. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:48 - Aug 18 with 707 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:28 - Aug 18 by raynor94 |
Exactly, after the first goal, we should have just kept possession for 2 minutes.
Hence Martin going nuts when we gave possession away. |
So you are saying it’s more likely the manager didn’t prepare them for that scenario despite numerous 90+ minute collapses.
Surely that is more concerning than the manager giving them poor tactics?
Id like to give the manager at least the benefit of the doubt that he did his job and prepared them, but obviously prepared them horrendously.
Your version of letting them do as they see fit would be unforgivable. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:59 - Aug 18 with 699 views | Sirjohnalot |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:00 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
But that’s his job?
It’s more of an assumption to assume he hasn’t done his job by instructing them how to play and leaving it up to them, surely?
It’s equally concerning (possibly more so) if he didn’t tell them how to play when defending a lead in injury time, especially considering we gave away a 2-0 lead in injury time a matter of a week or two ago against Oxford, to compound further injury time collapses at the end of last season. |
Well no, of course they know how to defend a lead in injury time. My highest football achievement is being captain of my junior school side when I was 8 (and that is only because it was my turn) and I would know how to do that.
Of course professional footballers know how to do it. Buck stops with the Captain, he is the leader on the pitch. | | | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:37 - Aug 18 with 675 views | vetchonian |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:59 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
Well no, of course they know how to defend a lead in injury time. My highest football achievement is being captain of my junior school side when I was 8 (and that is only because it was my turn) and I would know how to do that.
Of course professional footballers know how to do it. Buck stops with the Captain, he is the leader on the pitch. |
As has been said Tuesdays was not an isolated incident this was the second instance in 7 days and there were the Bouremouth and Reading draws snatched from the jaws of victory
Surely the manager should now then be sorting out the leader on the pitch?
Its not the fiorst time we have capitualted in this way the manager needs to shoulder responibility for the changes he made BUT also he should by now have had a wrod in the onpitch leader 's ear to ensure it doesnt happen again? | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:49 - Aug 18 with 664 views | magicdaps10 |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:37 - Aug 18 by vetchonian |
As has been said Tuesdays was not an isolated incident this was the second instance in 7 days and there were the Bouremouth and Reading draws snatched from the jaws of victory
Surely the manager should now then be sorting out the leader on the pitch?
Its not the fiorst time we have capitualted in this way the manager needs to shoulder responibility for the changes he made BUT also he should by now have had a wrod in the onpitch leader 's ear to ensure it doesnt happen again? |
Hopefully as Allen gets fitter and puts in more 90mins, the captains armband could be put onto himand away from Grimes.
You can prepare for every scenario but ultimately the players need to produce it and that seems to be failing with late goals.
I remember the game last season away to QPR when it got shirty, players coming together..... Grimes never got involved in it and I remember thinking that this was wrong at the time.
I think Allen should get the armband but my concern will be the stirring of the spoon with posters on here with Grimes and Martin then.....there will likely be another story of player and manager fallout. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:52 - Aug 18 with 658 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:59 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
Well no, of course they know how to defend a lead in injury time. My highest football achievement is being captain of my junior school side when I was 8 (and that is only because it was my turn) and I would know how to do that.
Of course professional footballers know how to do it. Buck stops with the Captain, he is the leader on the pitch. |
I don’t understand what you are saying here?
It’s not about knowing how. Surely they know how to win too then, and do everything needed to be a successful football side? They are professionals at the end of the day.
The reality however is professional football is a long chalk from U-9’s school football. The footballers are pawns in a giant game controlled by the managers. They are employed to carry out the managers instructions, not their own.
You seem to be saying despite the fact we keep giving these goals away in injury time - the manager still hasn’t bothered telling them what he wants from them in the last 5 minutes?
I can’t get my head around that view. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 12:03 - Aug 18 with 641 views | angryjack |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:59 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
Well no, of course they know how to defend a lead in injury time. My highest football achievement is being captain of my junior school side when I was 8 (and that is only because it was my turn) and I would know how to do that.
Of course professional footballers know how to do it. Buck stops with the Captain, he is the leader on the pitch. |
Dint wirk like ghat the higher the standard you play | | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 12:14 - Aug 18 with 632 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:37 - Aug 18 by vetchonian |
As has been said Tuesdays was not an isolated incident this was the second instance in 7 days and there were the Bouremouth and Reading draws snatched from the jaws of victory
Surely the manager should now then be sorting out the leader on the pitch?
Its not the fiorst time we have capitualted in this way the manager needs to shoulder responibility for the changes he made BUT also he should by now have had a wrod in the onpitch leader 's ear to ensure it doesnt happen again? |
Correct.
How a team defends a lead in injury time should be a meticulously planned thing, done hundreds of times in drills in training - especially with the issues we have had with it.
This notion that players make it up on the fly is wildly inaccurate… or at least should be wildly inaccurate.
As I said, if that turns out it is the case than that is even worse from Russell Martin. I hope to God its incompetence rather than negligence - which is what is being suggested. [Post edited 18 Aug 2022 12:34]
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 12:26 - Aug 18 with 619 views | Kerouac |
TBH, even the teenage teams are drilled on managing the closing minutes (defending a lead)...by competent coaches.
I'm sure Martin and his coaches MUST have worked on this, I'm sure it must have been focused on given how many times we have thrown away leads.
Whatever the plan is it is not working.
Grimes will have pumped that ball long based on pre-agreed plans.
He is an intelligent player, that is why good clubs have been interested in him, why he is picked week in and week out, why Martin and Cooper have had him as captain.
People who criticise Grimes week in week out literally don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Somebody I used to play with and coach with has come back to watching the Swans recently...I trust his opinion 100%.
The first thing he said to me was what a good player Matt Grimes is...I agreed of course.
When I told him about the stick he gets from Swans fans he refused to believe it, "I haven't heard anyone around me giving him grief" he said.
I told him to check out the fans forums 
Clueless, absolutely clueless.
It seems we would rather drum out our best (2nd best if Allen regains full fitness) midfielder...a player who has been a minimum of 7 out of 10 every week for 3/4 Championship seasons and helped us get to Play-offs twice... rather than hold our manager, with a track record of failing, to account. |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 13:03 - Aug 18 with 583 views | nantywatcher |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 12:26 - Aug 18 by Kerouac |
TBH, even the teenage teams are drilled on managing the closing minutes (defending a lead)...by competent coaches.
I'm sure Martin and his coaches MUST have worked on this, I'm sure it must have been focused on given how many times we have thrown away leads.
Whatever the plan is it is not working.
Grimes will have pumped that ball long based on pre-agreed plans.
He is an intelligent player, that is why good clubs have been interested in him, why he is picked week in and week out, why Martin and Cooper have had him as captain.
People who criticise Grimes week in week out literally don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Somebody I used to play with and coach with has come back to watching the Swans recently...I trust his opinion 100%.
The first thing he said to me was what a good player Matt Grimes is...I agreed of course.
When I told him about the stick he gets from Swans fans he refused to believe it, "I haven't heard anyone around me giving him grief" he said.
I told him to check out the fans forums
Clueless, absolutely clueless.
It seems we would rather drum out our best (2nd best if Allen regains full fitness) midfielder...a player who has been a minimum of 7 out of 10 every week for 3/4 Championship seasons and helped us get to Play-offs twice... rather than hold our manager, with a track record of failing, to account. |
!00% right.
Re-watching those few minutes we lost that match because of one man (boy) not doing his job and that is down to the manager who brought him to the club in the first place.
Had to love how that supreme pro Naughton threw the ball over the crossbar after the first goal. The second goal was panic and pandemonium before an average cross, not cut out by Sorinola and should, at the very minimum, been punched away by Fisher (his body language after the goal speaks volumes) I wouldn't lay blame on Wood | | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 13:24 - Aug 18 with 564 views | Sirjohnalot |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:52 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
I don’t understand what you are saying here?
It’s not about knowing how. Surely they know how to win too then, and do everything needed to be a successful football side? They are professionals at the end of the day.
The reality however is professional football is a long chalk from U-9’s school football. The footballers are pawns in a giant game controlled by the managers. They are employed to carry out the managers instructions, not their own.
You seem to be saying despite the fact we keep giving these goals away in injury time - the manager still hasn’t bothered telling them what he wants from them in the last 5 minutes?
I can’t get my head around that view. |
How do you know that he hasn't ? We do not know, it may well be that he has or that it is so blooming obvious he does not need to.
None of us know what is said in the private discussions between him and the players, if it is his instructions to do this, he is clueless, if it not, it is down to the player. Against Blackpool in the final 7 minutes of injury time, we stuck the boot on it and it worked. Shouldn't Martin get praised for that as that must have been his orders too | | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 13:32 - Aug 18 with 551 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 13:24 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
How do you know that he hasn't ? We do not know, it may well be that he has or that it is so blooming obvious he does not need to.
None of us know what is said in the private discussions between him and the players, if it is his instructions to do this, he is clueless, if it not, it is down to the player. Against Blackpool in the final 7 minutes of injury time, we stuck the boot on it and it worked. Shouldn't Martin get praised for that as that must have been his orders too |
How do I know he hasn’t what?
Either way this is down to the manager, there is no circumstance where it is down to the players.
1 - this continued style of play in injury time is down to instruction = incompetent.
2 - this continued collapse is down to the players playing how they like = negligent.
He is the manager, game management is his job. If he hasn’t drilled his team meticulously to do what he has asked then he is neglecting his duties.
If he has (which I’d hope) then it’s down to him why this keeps happening. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 13:59 - Aug 18 with 524 views | onehunglow |
Clueless or not,fans keep the game going.
Its not possible to have professional fans at every game.
Most are simply souls who see a captain who is utterly mute and anything but an inspiration.
A player who slows the game down every time;a player who might have had offers but none came to much.
I wonder all the time. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:33 - Aug 18 with 496 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 06:46 - Aug 17 by STID2017 |
What can he do at 90 minutes though ?
The players ( even the younger ones ) have all been playing football for long enough and will have been involved in games where they are winning and need to see the game out.
Every one of them should have been calmly trying to see the game to it's natural conclusion, rather than panicking like they did.
I remember looking at the clock at around 87 mins and thinking " Well done guys, just keep it going".
Millwall had huffed and puffed but hadn't really threatened.
Sorry but this one isn't on the manager for me. |
Totally agree mate |  |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:35 - Aug 18 with 494 views | krunchykarrot |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 08:49 - Aug 17 by nantywatcher |
Wild overreaction! Excellent entertaining game of football. We played some wonderful stuff at times. Some great individual performances. Criticism aimed at Piroe is utter nonsense - he worked his socks off, never stopped making himself available. I would blame the manager for subbing Ntcham who was outstanding. For our manager to think that Sorinola is anything like good enough to be in the Championship is beyond me - if he had been remotely interested in doing the job asked of him we would have won that match. For people to criticise the team for attacking in the 93rd minute is ridiculous, I don't blame Obafemi for shooting but he knows he should have passed to Piroe. Far more positives than negatives last night. |
I agree with most if not all of your post, Piroe was showing and tried hard but it was not one of his best games, fact. Blaming the manager for subs is spot on, however that is the nature of the game, 93rd min sub who scores to break stalemate manager takes credit? Sorinola was at fault after switch or Grimes for not closing down (harsh)? Or even OBA for not scoring third or not passing or not going to corner?
Ntcham played very well and looked the fittest ive seen him, i would have taken him off and suggest most managers would have.
Sorinola needs time on the bench we cannot afford for him to adapt if he can starting? I keep saying we need a pacy WB or attacking FB which i would favour desperately. Then an out and out player with pace who can take on opposing players.
I enjoyed the game as well, but i cannot remember being so pissed of as a supporter. But all i will say is the players feel worse? |  | | |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:39 - Aug 18 with 494 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 08:40 - Aug 17 by onehunglow |
You enjoyed the game?
My God,I have never read anything like that after a throw away.Did you enjoy the Bmuff,ReadingmOxford give aways too.
You cant be gutted and enjoy a game
Why are the crowd so devoid of passion? That says it all.Martin is killing us. |
Of coursse you can enjoy a game and then also be gutted about it.
Enjoyment doesn't come by choice. If you find something enjoyable, it's not one's fault.
Then something bad happens, which causes a feeling of being gutted. Neither is this a choice. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:47 - Aug 18 with 491 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:06 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
That’s because they are given the freedom to, under managerial instructions.
What is the point of a manager if you don’t think the players play the way a manager asks?
And if that’s the case then why did you blame Cooper when we lost? Surely the players can play well right? “
They are professional footballers mun” |
May as well blame Martin for Pato chucking the ball back to them as well then.
What a terrible tactic for him to employ.
Sack him now! | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:49 - Aug 18 with 490 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 09:13 - Aug 18 by Sirjohnalot |
There is nothing to suggest that Martin told them when they are 2-0, then 2-1 up in injury to play the way they did. That’s s big assumption |
Exactly. It could just as likely be assumed that Martin and the coaching team have spoken to the players about what they need to do to close out games, and they just didn't do it correctly.
Assume nothing. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:51 - Aug 18 with 490 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 10:28 - Aug 18 by raynor94 |
Exactly, after the first goal, we should have just kept possession for 2 minutes.
Hence Martin going nuts when we gave possession away. |
Exactly...Why on earth would he go nuts, if the team were simply playing out the game as they had been instructed? People on here are absolutely mental. | |
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| What An Overreaction By Some on 14:53 - Aug 18 with 490 views | jackrmee |
| What An Overreaction By Some on 11:37 - Aug 18 by vetchonian |
As has been said Tuesdays was not an isolated incident this was the second instance in 7 days and there were the Bouremouth and Reading draws snatched from the jaws of victory
Surely the manager should now then be sorting out the leader on the pitch?
Its not the fiorst time we have capitualted in this way the manager needs to shoulder responibility for the changes he made BUT also he should by now have had a wrod in the onpitch leader 's ear to ensure it doesnt happen again? |
It was hardly a capitulation.
2 inexplicable own goals in injury time. Not as if we were overrun and deserved to lose. | |
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