| The shocking truth about the NHS. 12:40 - Nov 15 with 3096 views | A_Fans_Dad |
According to this DM report.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/de
the NHS cost the UK public £229Billion last year.
That equates to more than £4,000 for every man, woman and child in England. (just forget about the rest of the UK) Which is over £3400 pwr person in the whole UK.
The article suggests that this is very poor value for money compared to other countries.
"For example, Britain has just 2.5 hospital beds for every 1,000 people. That is less than a third of the number in Germany; or even Bulgaria.
Britain also has fewer doctors, nurses, CT scanners and MRI units per capita than similar countries. We also have poorer survival rates for most cancers. And, as Mail readers know all too well, getting a GP appointment has become an endurance sport." |  | | |  |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 12:51 - Nov 15 with 2598 views | Gwyn737 |
It needs reform to be sure.
Hindsight is a marvelous thing I grant you but looking back, the decision to take on austerity instead of growth between 2010 and 2019 is going to haunt us for a long, long time. | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 13:22 - Nov 15 with 2566 views | Sandanista |
Would be interesting as to what people consider the options-I agree with Gwyn's point.
There is clearly too much management (and highly paid) that needs reforming but the situation with trusts is part of that. There is very much a toxic bullying culture from management which leads to staff attrition (from experience with my wife who left a senior para-clinical post due to this).
There is also an expectation around new treatments- many cancer drugs are eye-wateringly expensive (000s per week) which have driven up costs
I see it as three options
1. Provide more funding via current model -which means more income tax or NIC
2. Go for US model-which is almost certainly part of the plan in running the NHS down. Fine if you have a good job to pay insurance and cover retirement. Let's be honest if you have chronic condition or a basic job the US healthcare is poor and bankrupts around 300,000 annually
3. Look at other (more successful) free services like Germany which is a compulsory insurance with payments based on wages-with a ceiling (i.e. capped at say £80K per year earnings)
Personally I feel there should be an independent or Royal Commision to explore options away from political machinations | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 13:43 - Nov 15 with 2558 views | Wingstandwood |
Morriston Hospital A+E is a pressure cooker that you've got to actually experience to believe it! The overworked and overstressed staff have my every respect, empathy and sympathy! *Be kind* its not their fault!
What you read in The South Wales Evening Post or see on HTV Wales/BBC Wales news is not an isolated case neither (it does not just happen to other people!) a form of headline-hysteria, it is the norm.
Ambulances can take up to half a day or more to arrive and the Welsh NHS has to rely on St Johns Ambulance and The Red Cross to provide ambulance service(s) cover and expect to spend up to half a day or vastly longer once in in Morriston A+E.
My advice (and I am 100% serious) to anyone who has been referred to A+E (often unnecessarily) by their G.P on triage is to take money for vending machines or a sandwich box, refreshments and a comfortable cushion, the seats are uncomfortable after many hours in.
You can expect to be still there the next day e.g. going in at 2:00pm on a Tuesday afternoon and coming home 6:00am in the morning onwards on Wednesday the following day after. |  |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:09 - Nov 15 with 2522 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 13:43 - Nov 15 by Wingstandwood |
Morriston Hospital A+E is a pressure cooker that you've got to actually experience to believe it! The overworked and overstressed staff have my every respect, empathy and sympathy! *Be kind* its not their fault!
What you read in The South Wales Evening Post or see on HTV Wales/BBC Wales news is not an isolated case neither (it does not just happen to other people!) a form of headline-hysteria, it is the norm.
Ambulances can take up to half a day or more to arrive and the Welsh NHS has to rely on St Johns Ambulance and The Red Cross to provide ambulance service(s) cover and expect to spend up to half a day or vastly longer once in in Morriston A+E.
My advice (and I am 100% serious) to anyone who has been referred to A+E (often unnecessarily) by their G.P on triage is to take money for vending machines or a sandwich box, refreshments and a comfortable cushion, the seats are uncomfortable after many hours in.
You can expect to be still there the next day e.g. going in at 2:00pm on a Tuesday afternoon and coming home 6:00am in the morning onwards on Wednesday the following day after. |
Number of people working in NHS 1,400,000
Number of doctors and nurses 400,000
That makes 1,000,000 non front line staff. How many of those million are essential and how many are just time serving managers and bureaucrats | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:11 - Nov 15 with 2513 views | onehunglow |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 13:43 - Nov 15 by Wingstandwood |
Morriston Hospital A+E is a pressure cooker that you've got to actually experience to believe it! The overworked and overstressed staff have my every respect, empathy and sympathy! *Be kind* its not their fault!
What you read in The South Wales Evening Post or see on HTV Wales/BBC Wales news is not an isolated case neither (it does not just happen to other people!) a form of headline-hysteria, it is the norm.
Ambulances can take up to half a day or more to arrive and the Welsh NHS has to rely on St Johns Ambulance and The Red Cross to provide ambulance service(s) cover and expect to spend up to half a day or vastly longer once in in Morriston A+E.
My advice (and I am 100% serious) to anyone who has been referred to A+E (often unnecessarily) by their G.P on triage is to take money for vending machines or a sandwich box, refreshments and a comfortable cushion, the seats are uncomfortable after many hours in.
You can expect to be still there the next day e.g. going in at 2:00pm on a Tuesday afternoon and coming home 6:00am in the morning onwards on Wednesday the following day after. |
Wife’s 95 yr old mum was in Countess of Chesterwith a suspected wrist break for six hours . It’s everywhere.
There s not enough staff for the present population let alone illegal entrants | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:26 - Nov 15 with 2509 views | Sandanista |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:09 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Number of people working in NHS 1,400,000
Number of doctors and nurses 400,000
That makes 1,000,000 non front line staff. How many of those million are essential and how many are just time serving managers and bureaucrats |
That will include a lot of ancillary staff-cleaners, catering etc.(if not outsourced).
Basic admin staff-those who sort the appointments etc.
Pharmacists and pharmacy technicians
Biomedical scientists (lab staff) plus basic lab assistants
Therapists- physio, OTs. SLT, dietitians
Radiographers
Porters
Ambulance service
Host of specialist technical posts
Maintenance staff
Whilst there is no doubt there are too many managerial layers (and highly paid), the majority of that million are paraclinical and support staff. | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:32 - Nov 15 with 2504 views | Wingstandwood |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:09 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Number of people working in NHS 1,400,000
Number of doctors and nurses 400,000
That makes 1,000,000 non front line staff. How many of those million are essential and how many are just time serving managers and bureaucrats |
Its a case of "if its like this now, what will it be like in 10 years time"?... Extremely scary!
The opinion of that A+E doctor echo's my thoughts i.e. he is 'desperate' to avoid his elderly parents ever being taken to A+E.
I was told of a case that happened a few weeks back where an individual of late forties age range from Neath postcode area was found on the floor collapsed, unconscious and blue in the face... 999 was called but was told that an ambulance was not available for at least 2 hours and was advised to take the person to A+E by car.
The trouble was the O.A.P mother and father would have found it impossible to get someone unconscious into a car. An unresponsive person is far more difficult to handle than a barbell weight of equal weight.
A neighbour helped but sadly that individual he helped later died. Ask many a DATA Cab driver and he will tell you that the Taxi service is at times acting more like an alternative ambulance service. Staggering to contemplate! [Post edited 15 Nov 2022 15:31]
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:34 - Nov 15 with 2502 views | A_Fans_Dad |
Labour created the NHS and labour destroyed.
Between creating "Trusts" with all the duplication that entailed, some parts being privatised and PFI backed investment costs.
Which should have been cancelled and paid off by the Government to relieve that burden.
Too much centralsation within Trusts.
Too much bed blocking with infirm patients who no longer have anywhere else to go.
Too many highly paid chiefs and not enough indians.
Paying too much for standard medicines.
Industry ripping them off on Equipment costs.
It needs professional cost benifit analysis, but that would end up taking too long and costing too much, because as we know governments can't run a piss up in a brewery. | | | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:44 - Nov 15 with 2483 views | Sandanista |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:34 - Nov 15 by A_Fans_Dad |
Labour created the NHS and labour destroyed.
Between creating "Trusts" with all the duplication that entailed, some parts being privatised and PFI backed investment costs.
Which should have been cancelled and paid off by the Government to relieve that burden.
Too much centralsation within Trusts.
Too much bed blocking with infirm patients who no longer have anywhere else to go.
Too many highly paid chiefs and not enough indians.
Paying too much for standard medicines.
Industry ripping them off on Equipment costs.
It needs professional cost benifit analysis, but that would end up taking too long and costing too much, because as we know governments can't run a piss up in a brewery. |
First paragraph is not true-the legislation for Trusts (National Health Service and Community Health Act) was in 1990 (Thatcher) and the first 50 or so established under Major in 1991. I was working in the NHS in Oxford 1991-1992 and all too aware of their introduction . PFI was also a creation of the Major government and both firmly established by the time the Blair government came to power. Now there is argument they could have been stopped then, their continuation with more core funding certainly led to improvements. Of course if you read the Mail that is forgotten.
It is a regret many hold that these were not dealt with 1997-2010, but to blame Labour for them shows some ignorance. It was a continuation of extant policy. | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:44 - Nov 15 with 2483 views | majorraglan |
I’d be interested to see where they get the £229bn figure from, the NHS England budget is around £150bn of which about £110bn goes in to commissioning the health boards, another£30bn does in to funding other primary services and the rest is spent on other things. I’d be very surprised if the Health budgets in the devolved countries as £70bn plus.
People should take note of the last paragraph, the author works at the Institute of Economic Affairs…. A right wing think tank who are touted as being significant influences of Liz Truss fissstrous budget which cost the country £30bn.
I’m not saying that the NHS is excellent because it clearly isn’t, but any reform should come after mature conversations (maybe a Royal Commission) about what we expect and what we’re prepared to pay.
The bottom line is we’ve got an ageing population, and increasing population 5m extra in the last 5 years, less hospital beds a significant number of which are blocked because the care system is broken. We’ve got less beds, less nurses and Sunak has now dropped Boris pledge for more doctors. | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:48 - Nov 15 with 2475 views | Wingstandwood |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:11 - Nov 15 by onehunglow |
Wife’s 95 yr old mum was in Countess of Chesterwith a suspected wrist break for six hours . It’s everywhere.
There s not enough staff for the present population let alone illegal entrants |
Sitting 6+ hours in the same chair in an A+E is trying at the best of times and that is when it applies to a well person accompanying someone. For someone in his/her nineties, distressed and in pain its absolute hell. | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:54 - Nov 15 with 2467 views | majorraglan |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:26 - Nov 15 by Sandanista |
That will include a lot of ancillary staff-cleaners, catering etc.(if not outsourced).
Basic admin staff-those who sort the appointments etc.
Pharmacists and pharmacy technicians
Biomedical scientists (lab staff) plus basic lab assistants
Therapists- physio, OTs. SLT, dietitians
Radiographers
Porters
Ambulance service
Host of specialist technical posts
Maintenance staff
Whilst there is no doubt there are too many managerial layers (and highly paid), the majority of that million are paraclinical and support staff. |
Indeed. I think it’s also important to highlight the role the non registered Healthcare staff play in patient care. They are not included in the 350,000 registered staff figure, but they do a lot of the graft in the NHS including patient personal care, observations including blood pressure, NEWs scores, they can also take blood samples etc etc and all got around £19k through to £23k.
I gong have stats re the number of health care staff, but on wards they probably mirror the number of nurses. [Post edited 15 Nov 2022 14:55]
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 15:36 - Nov 15 with 2427 views | BryanSwan |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 13:43 - Nov 15 by Wingstandwood |
Morriston Hospital A+E is a pressure cooker that you've got to actually experience to believe it! The overworked and overstressed staff have my every respect, empathy and sympathy! *Be kind* its not their fault!
What you read in The South Wales Evening Post or see on HTV Wales/BBC Wales news is not an isolated case neither (it does not just happen to other people!) a form of headline-hysteria, it is the norm.
Ambulances can take up to half a day or more to arrive and the Welsh NHS has to rely on St Johns Ambulance and The Red Cross to provide ambulance service(s) cover and expect to spend up to half a day or vastly longer once in in Morriston A+E.
My advice (and I am 100% serious) to anyone who has been referred to A+E (often unnecessarily) by their G.P on triage is to take money for vending machines or a sandwich box, refreshments and a comfortable cushion, the seats are uncomfortable after many hours in.
You can expect to be still there the next day e.g. going in at 2:00pm on a Tuesday afternoon and coming home 6:00am in the morning onwards on Wednesday the following day after. |
I certainly am no fan of the state of the NHS currently and completely agree that the frontline nurses and doctors do a tremendous job considering the circumstances.
The state of the NHS though is solely the fault of the governments in control. Social provision for healthcare has never been a popular expense.
It is interesting to see the rag coming out and slating the NHS and how it is such a massive waste of money though, privatisation is on the horizon. | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 15:54 - Nov 15 with 2411 views | Wingstandwood |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 15:36 - Nov 15 by BryanSwan |
I certainly am no fan of the state of the NHS currently and completely agree that the frontline nurses and doctors do a tremendous job considering the circumstances.
The state of the NHS though is solely the fault of the governments in control. Social provision for healthcare has never been a popular expense.
It is interesting to see the rag coming out and slating the NHS and how it is such a massive waste of money though, privatisation is on the horizon. |
My worry is that NHS staff are under so much strain, stress and pressure that they will eventually leave in even greater numbers. And add to that the fact that it will become increasingly difficult to attract new recruits into the NHS.
To say I have the utmost empathy, respect and admiration for Morriston A+E staff (and other A+E) would be an understatement. Like I have previously mentioned "You have got to actually see it to believe it".
And like I mentioned previously i.e. thank God for overseas recruitment (50/50 when I was in Morriston A+E) because if wasn't for foreign NHS staff intake the crisis (because that what it well and truly is) would be vastly worse.
Politicians have got to get together and put differences aside and look at moving forward for the greater good for everyone! | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 16:08 - Nov 15 with 2397 views | Whiterockin |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 15:36 - Nov 15 by BryanSwan |
I certainly am no fan of the state of the NHS currently and completely agree that the frontline nurses and doctors do a tremendous job considering the circumstances.
The state of the NHS though is solely the fault of the governments in control. Social provision for healthcare has never been a popular expense.
It is interesting to see the rag coming out and slating the NHS and how it is such a massive waste of money though, privatisation is on the horizon. |
Would privatisation be such a bad thing. Providing it provided a better service at less cost and staff were treated better. |  | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 16:18 - Nov 15 with 2394 views | CountyJim |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:09 - Nov 15 by felixstowe_jack |
Number of people working in NHS 1,400,000
Number of doctors and nurses 400,000
That makes 1,000,000 non front line staff. How many of those million are essential and how many are just time serving managers and bureaucrats |
Not true there's ambulance service for a start on the front line I also include the likes of myself a porter I probably deal with more patients than a doctor or a nurse during a shift in fact theres been evidence that porters unwittingly transfer more bugs and infections than other health worker because during a shift I will deal with not just patients but clinical waste , blood products medicines to name a few and your average porter will visit every ward and department during a shift multiple times .
No matter how often you clean your hands wear PPE you can't avoid some infections and I'm currently being tested for the next 8 months because I've had a sharps injury recently |  | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 16:37 - Nov 15 with 2376 views | onehunglow |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 16:18 - Nov 15 by CountyJim |
Not true there's ambulance service for a start on the front line I also include the likes of myself a porter I probably deal with more patients than a doctor or a nurse during a shift in fact theres been evidence that porters unwittingly transfer more bugs and infections than other health worker because during a shift I will deal with not just patients but clinical waste , blood products medicines to name a few and your average porter will visit every ward and department during a shift multiple times .
No matter how often you clean your hands wear PPE you can't avoid some infections and I'm currently being tested for the next 8 months because I've had a sharps injury recently |
Are you retirement age | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:32 - Nov 15 with 2356 views | Dr_Winston |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 14:44 - Nov 15 by Sandanista |
First paragraph is not true-the legislation for Trusts (National Health Service and Community Health Act) was in 1990 (Thatcher) and the first 50 or so established under Major in 1991. I was working in the NHS in Oxford 1991-1992 and all too aware of their introduction . PFI was also a creation of the Major government and both firmly established by the time the Blair government came to power. Now there is argument they could have been stopped then, their continuation with more core funding certainly led to improvements. Of course if you read the Mail that is forgotten.
It is a regret many hold that these were not dealt with 1997-2010, but to blame Labour for them shows some ignorance. It was a continuation of extant policy. |
Whilst I have no doubt that PFI was a Major invention, it was tailor made for Blair and Brown to run with. Billions and billions borrowed under the guise of "investment" which people believed wholeheartedly.
I think we have to accept that continuing to do things the way they have been up until now is not a viable option in the long run unless we want the whole system to collapse. I think there is a part for private insurance to play, I think there is a part for the private sector to play, alongside Government oversight and the understanding that treatment will remain free at point of service. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:48 - Nov 15 with 2340 views | Sandanista |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:32 - Nov 15 by Dr_Winston |
Whilst I have no doubt that PFI was a Major invention, it was tailor made for Blair and Brown to run with. Billions and billions borrowed under the guise of "investment" which people believed wholeheartedly.
I think we have to accept that continuing to do things the way they have been up until now is not a viable option in the long run unless we want the whole system to collapse. I think there is a part for private insurance to play, I think there is a part for the private sector to play, alongside Government oversight and the understanding that treatment will remain free at point of service. |
That’s quite similar to the German system- something we should consider | | | |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 18:10 - Nov 15 with 2320 views | Wingstandwood |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:32 - Nov 15 by Dr_Winston |
Whilst I have no doubt that PFI was a Major invention, it was tailor made for Blair and Brown to run with. Billions and billions borrowed under the guise of "investment" which people believed wholeheartedly.
I think we have to accept that continuing to do things the way they have been up until now is not a viable option in the long run unless we want the whole system to collapse. I think there is a part for private insurance to play, I think there is a part for the private sector to play, alongside Government oversight and the understanding that treatment will remain free at point of service. |
Expolittive PFI contracts to build hospitals was utter lunacy and the antithesis of common sense, rational thinking and sensible financial practice!
The government was better off borrowing money at much more lower and responsible rates! A complete and utter disgrace when it came to "value for money"...Extortionate!
I guess that somewhere along the line, many were rather privileged (you scratch my back I'll scratch yours?) to know exactly the right politicians and cronies whom could help them fill their boots!...... It could never have happened without them!
If I remember correctly it was a 'CH4 Dispatches' that said that it cost hundreds of pounds just to change a hospital lightbulb.
The private sector can indeed at times offer extremely good value for money (competitive tendering etc) but the downside is, it can also, at times exploit situations in totally immoral ways. Hence why oversight from those with morals, impartiality, common sense and business acumen is so vital! | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 18:47 - Nov 15 with 2294 views | Dr_Winston |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:48 - Nov 15 by Sandanista |
That’s quite similar to the German system- something we should consider |
It doesn't help when the NHS is held up as a golden idol. Something to be worshipped and adored when many other, non-US countries (incidentally I believe that the US spends more per head on health care than the UK does) do things differently and often better.
We have to be prepared to learn the lessons of other countries rather than treat it as sacrosanct. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 18:49 - Nov 15 with 2292 views | Wingstandwood |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 18:47 - Nov 15 by Dr_Winston |
It doesn't help when the NHS is held up as a golden idol. Something to be worshipped and adored when many other, non-US countries (incidentally I believe that the US spends more per head on health care than the UK does) do things differently and often better.
We have to be prepared to learn the lessons of other countries rather than treat it as sacrosanct. |
"We have to be prepared to learn the lessons of other countries rather than treat it as sacrosanct." Bang on! | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 20:15 - Nov 15 with 2242 views | Dr_Winston |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 18:49 - Nov 15 by Wingstandwood |
"We have to be prepared to learn the lessons of other countries rather than treat it as sacrosanct." Bang on! |
Problem is that it's highly unlikely to happen.
Any attempt to reform the NHS results in squeals of horror from some quarters and the insinuation that all those responsible want to do is privatise it. I've lost count of how many "Last chance to save the NHS!" screams there has been. The Daily Mirror did it this week.
Nobody wants to privatise it. Not Labour, not the Tories. The Tories would never do it because it would be an instant election loser. They might tinker around the edges, but no more than that. Even Thatcher at the height of her power never even remotely considered it. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 21:23 - Nov 15 with 2216 views | Catullus |
| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 17:48 - Nov 15 by Sandanista |
That’s quite similar to the German system- something we should consider |
It already happens. A new, private eye hospital has recently opened in Swansea; it's on the Enterprise zone and it's called SpaMedica.
As a group they do thousands of cataract operations every year for the NHS. | |
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| The shocking truth about the NHS. on 21:54 - Nov 15 with 2189 views | trampie |
In a Socialist world you would have a national health service, in a capitalist world the forces at play dictate otherwise.
Because if everybody was earning similar amount of coin then a national health service would be the way to go, when there is a huge wealth gap then the rich don't want to pay as they can pay for better private treatment, then there is a case of why should the rich get free treatment when the service is on its arse financially and it's all because of the imbalance of wealth of the population.
The UK used to have one of the smallest gaps between high earners and low earners in the Western world now it has one of the biggest gaps between high and low earners. |  |
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