| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion 12:05 - Jan 4 with 11998 views | extratimeR |
It's been mentioned on here before, but if we don't go up this year then next season looks bloody nigh on impossible.
Newcastle, Burnley, Norwich, plus probably West Brom, a reawakened Nottingham Forest and Middlesbrough, and possibly Sheffield United, plus add in a bit of er Sunderland, and it looks like a tricky season, is FFP temporarily suspended?
If it is then it might be time for the club to go for the extra two or three that might get us into play-offs.
( Particularly with the possible effects of AFCON |  | | |  |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 20:35 - Jan 7 with 2135 views | Hayesender |
It reminds me of the episode of only fools and horses when they got their windfall.
Del was going on about achieving everything he wanted, but he missed the chase.
That sums the championship and premier up for me. I love trying to get there, but don't really want to get there to get bummed in the gob every week |  |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:17 - Jan 7 with 2019 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 19:31 - Jan 7 by Stainrod |
If every business took that attitude, no business would grow.
I'm taking a first timer to the WBA game - how much easier a "sell" to convert that casual punter into a regular if their circulation wasn't cut off by the seat in front, they could get some decent food beforehand and sit in a stadium that wasn't falling down?
As has already been pointed out in this thread, Lee Hoos has already provided stats showing that only a tiny proportion of newbies return - because the customer experience is so poor.
If QPR remains a cosy club for an ageing group of middle aged/ elderly men sooner or later the fanbase and the club will die. Then you won't have a club to support. The status quo doesn't keep things the same - it consigns them to history. |
Fortunately, football isn't a 'business' with 'customers' for those of us with a soul - it's a kind of lovely madhouse or irrational church filled with romantics, lunatics and fanatics. My falling in love with QPR at the age of 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with my 'customer experience', lack of legroom, or dodgy pies - in fact, the discomfort, smoke and swearing were part of what drew me in. The Loft (RIP), when I was big enough to stand on it on my own, was my leaky cathedral.
If the Lee Hooses of this world, or anyone else, don't/can't understand that, they can shove their appropriative lexicon of matchday consumerism where the sun don't shine. You either get it or you don't. |  |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 00:01 - Jan 8 with 2006 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:17 - Jan 7 by stainrods_elbow |
Fortunately, football isn't a 'business' with 'customers' for those of us with a soul - it's a kind of lovely madhouse or irrational church filled with romantics, lunatics and fanatics. My falling in love with QPR at the age of 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with my 'customer experience', lack of legroom, or dodgy pies - in fact, the discomfort, smoke and swearing were part of what drew me in. The Loft (RIP), when I was big enough to stand on it on my own, was my leaky cathedral.
If the Lee Hooses of this world, or anyone else, don't/can't understand that, they can shove their appropriative lexicon of matchday consumerism where the sun don't shine. You either get it or you don't. |
Hoos does understand it. He does understand that the hardcore group of fans we have love LR, of course we do. We go every week despite the poor state of the stadium, and we love it like Marty Crane loved his horrible old armchair.
But I fear you're the one missing the point: not everyone is like you/us. It's ok for you to say it's not a business, but to ignore the business side of it is pure folly. Yes it's community and the smell of stale hot dogs and Dave Thomas shouting 'ereyarekickupthearsbranewissue' as you leave the ground, but to run the club you have to be aware of all aspects and facets. I have friends who have genuinely told me they'd love to come to games but were in actual pain after sitting in the SA Road seats and won't come back. Now, they're not QPR fans, but they do pay money - and, maybe, if it's a nicer place to come, they might come again. And then bring their kids. I know a Man U fan from school - he lives in Brighton, of course - once they changed grounds, he started taking his kids and now they all have replica kits and season tickets. Now, fine, he may not be the 'pure' fan you are, but his kids will be and Hoos wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't trying to attract these sorts of fans and get them to come more regularly. That's not even about business, it's just common sense. Whether or not you like the lexicon he uses is irrelevant to the facts.
We're one of the very, very few clubs not only in the top 2 divisions, but throughout the leagues, that either hasn't had a new ground or substantial remodelling/expansion in the last 30 years. I'm as romantic about our ground as you or anyone else, but we're being left behind. Attacking Hoos for seeing that doesn't change that fact.
*apart from anything else, even our legroom isn't bad enough for you to have been considering it at the age of 8. |  |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 08:14 - Jan 8 with 1911 views | joe90 |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:17 - Jan 7 by stainrods_elbow |
Fortunately, football isn't a 'business' with 'customers' for those of us with a soul - it's a kind of lovely madhouse or irrational church filled with romantics, lunatics and fanatics. My falling in love with QPR at the age of 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with my 'customer experience', lack of legroom, or dodgy pies - in fact, the discomfort, smoke and swearing were part of what drew me in. The Loft (RIP), when I was big enough to stand on it on my own, was my leaky cathedral.
If the Lee Hooses of this world, or anyone else, don't/can't understand that, they can shove their appropriative lexicon of matchday consumerism where the sun don't shine. You either get it or you don't. |
I agree 100% with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but Antti’s post above is the rational view. |  | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 12:13 - Jan 8 with 1818 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 08:14 - Jan 8 by joe90 |
I agree 100% with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but Antti’s post above is the rational view. |
yep - i also agree 100% with his sentiment, to be clear! | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:38 - Jan 8 with 1744 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 08:14 - Jan 8 by joe90 |
I agree 100% with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but Antti’s post above is the rational view. |
Which makes my point once again by default - being an Rs fan isn't a rational business, and I'm not trying to mount (in fact, I'm opposing) a rational argument. That's why we're called fanatics.
fanatic (n.)
1520s, "insane person," from Latin fanaticus "mad, enthusiastic, inspired by a god," also "furious, mad," originally, "pertaining to a temple," from fanum "temple, shrine, consecrated place," related to festus "festive" (see feast (n.)). Meaning "zealous person, person affected by enthusiasm" is from 1640s. As an adjective, in English, 1530s, "furious;" meaning "characterized by excessive enthusiasm," especially in religion (of Nonconformists), is from 1640s.
A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. [attributed to Winston Churchill] | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:41 - Jan 8 with 1732 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 00:01 - Jan 8 by Antti_Heinola |
Hoos does understand it. He does understand that the hardcore group of fans we have love LR, of course we do. We go every week despite the poor state of the stadium, and we love it like Marty Crane loved his horrible old armchair.
But I fear you're the one missing the point: not everyone is like you/us. It's ok for you to say it's not a business, but to ignore the business side of it is pure folly. Yes it's community and the smell of stale hot dogs and Dave Thomas shouting 'ereyarekickupthearsbranewissue' as you leave the ground, but to run the club you have to be aware of all aspects and facets. I have friends who have genuinely told me they'd love to come to games but were in actual pain after sitting in the SA Road seats and won't come back. Now, they're not QPR fans, but they do pay money - and, maybe, if it's a nicer place to come, they might come again. And then bring their kids. I know a Man U fan from school - he lives in Brighton, of course - once they changed grounds, he started taking his kids and now they all have replica kits and season tickets. Now, fine, he may not be the 'pure' fan you are, but his kids will be and Hoos wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't trying to attract these sorts of fans and get them to come more regularly. That's not even about business, it's just common sense. Whether or not you like the lexicon he uses is irrelevant to the facts.
We're one of the very, very few clubs not only in the top 2 divisions, but throughout the leagues, that either hasn't had a new ground or substantial remodelling/expansion in the last 30 years. I'm as romantic about our ground as you or anyone else, but we're being left behind. Attacking Hoos for seeing that doesn't change that fact.
*apart from anything else, even our legroom isn't bad enough for you to have been considering it at the age of 8. |
On top of which, Hoos has done next to nothing to improve the stadium in any way as far as I can see, which is one good enough reason why I think he should go. | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 10:09 - Jan 9 with 1630 views | francisbowles |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:41 - Jan 8 by stainrods_elbow |
On top of which, Hoos has done next to nothing to improve the stadium in any way as far as I can see, which is one good enough reason why I think he should go. |
I loved standing on the old loft when I was a kid. I loved watching Rodney, in the number 10 shirt. I loved watching Stan even more. Terry Venables, Terry Mancini, Gerry, DT, DM, DG, and all the others.
I loved going to gigs at the old Marquee for less than a quid I loved spending £2.20 a week on a vinyl album I loved Rory Gallagher and Phil Lynott.
I loved my old Ford Capri.
I loved the old days to and wish they it was still like that in many ways but......
Life 'aint' like that anymore!
I think you need to get in touch with reality! | | | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 11:20 - Jan 9 with 1547 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 10:09 - Jan 9 by francisbowles |
I loved standing on the old loft when I was a kid. I loved watching Rodney, in the number 10 shirt. I loved watching Stan even more. Terry Venables, Terry Mancini, Gerry, DT, DM, DG, and all the others.
I loved going to gigs at the old Marquee for less than a quid I loved spending £2.20 a week on a vinyl album I loved Rory Gallagher and Phil Lynott.
I loved my old Ford Capri.
I loved the old days to and wish they it was still like that in many ways but......
Life 'aint' like that anymore!
I think you need to get in touch with reality! |
I am in touch with reality - all the realities you and I are describing. If anything, I'm too much in touch with it. You could call me a romantic realist, or an ideal pragmatist.
'Time for me is a static concept' (Brendan Perry).
I rest my case. [Post edited 9 Jan 2022 12:06]
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 11:32 - Jan 9 with 1539 views | hantssi |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:41 - Jan 8 by stainrods_elbow |
On top of which, Hoos has done next to nothing to improve the stadium in any way as far as I can see, which is one good enough reason why I think he should go. |
Really?
I think we’re in the most stable position financially we’ve been in years which is in part down to him.
I don’t disagree with any of your other sentiments by the way, I too loved standing in the old Loft, watching Stan etc, unfortunately the days of local boy comes good buys his local football team are long gone. | | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 12:15 - Jan 9 with 1487 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 11:32 - Jan 9 by hantssi |
Really?
I think we’re in the most stable position financially we’ve been in years which is in part down to him.
I don’t disagree with any of your other sentiments by the way, I too loved standing in the old Loft, watching Stan etc, unfortunately the days of local boy comes good buys his local football team are long gone. |
Everything that diminishes the game - from the Sky takeover to the removal of terraces to player simulation to grotesque price hikes - doesn't happen through the operation of some kind of inexorable movement of footballing fate. It's orchestrated by means of a lack of pushback, resistance and a form of politically/economically motivated elitist sporting violence. In fact, all the methods whereby some here seem to think we'll generate QPR 'customers' of the future - as if football fans are somehow fired in a crucible of shiny staircases and padded seats - are what would do more to repel me, or at best leave me indifferent. If you're someone who needs this explaining to them, however, we might as well leave it there. You can't monetise, corporatise or consumerise soul or love. The city where I live, the city I love - namely Dublin - is dirty, rainy, cramped and in many cases dilapidated. Do I love it any less for that? If anything, I probably love it more.
The truest love song ever written? 'Don't Ever Change' by The Jesus and Mary Chain. [Post edited 9 Jan 2022 12:43]
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:18 - Jan 9 with 1449 views | kensalriser |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 17:30 - Jan 7 by stainrods_elbow |
There is absolutely no way our fanbase would magically grow just because we had a shiny new ground with a 30K + capacity - you're living in cuckoo land, sir. Our 'core' support has been around 10-15k for decades, and would stay so. Even in the Championship-tilting side of 1975-76, we averaged around 22-23k, and our mid-week European games were more poorly attended still - Ron Phillips wrote an editorial in the programme about it at the time - 21k vs FC Cologne if memory serves. For that reason alone, as well as others I have severally documented, both fiscal and soulful, we could do a lot worse than staying at HQ. |
I think you've already acknowledged in susequent posts you're the one in cloud cuckoo land arguing against rationality.
Argue that you prefer the ground as it is, with all its flaws, and that you don't want QPR to progress, or attract more fans. Fine, that's your opinion. But you can't argue against the observable fact that clubs with new/greatly improved grounds get higher average attendances, sometimes significantly so. Probably the only exception to this empirical rule is Coventry.
Do you need to grow the hardcore fanbase to increase attendances? In the short term, no. Attendances can grow from existing fans going to more games themselves and bringing friends and family, and they can grow by attracting more neutrals. Some of these new spectators will go on to become regulars and some of those new regulars will bring their kids and that's how the fanbase will grow, or at at least stay the same because let's face it, the generation that grew up with Rodney Marsh and 1967 is already beginning to die off. |  |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 16:30 - Jan 9 with 1391 views | stainrods_elbow |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:18 - Jan 9 by kensalriser |
I think you've already acknowledged in susequent posts you're the one in cloud cuckoo land arguing against rationality.
Argue that you prefer the ground as it is, with all its flaws, and that you don't want QPR to progress, or attract more fans. Fine, that's your opinion. But you can't argue against the observable fact that clubs with new/greatly improved grounds get higher average attendances, sometimes significantly so. Probably the only exception to this empirical rule is Coventry.
Do you need to grow the hardcore fanbase to increase attendances? In the short term, no. Attendances can grow from existing fans going to more games themselves and bringing friends and family, and they can grow by attracting more neutrals. Some of these new spectators will go on to become regulars and some of those new regulars will bring their kids and that's how the fanbase will grow, or at at least stay the same because let's face it, the generation that grew up with Rodney Marsh and 1967 is already beginning to die off. |
Many of these clubs - Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton, Southampton etc. - had larger or much larger 'core' fan bases than their original grounds could accommodate, which I don't believe is the case with QPR, so of course their att. figures went up. On the other hand, Hull City are just one example of a club who are pulling in a similar number now to when they left Boothferry Park. There are a large number of variables involved - league standing, owners, etc. etc. If we were to move in to a spanky 30k capacity stadium tomorrow, (in or out of the borough) and people think suddenly 20k+ would be turning up week after week (however big the legroom is), they're delusional. | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 16:55 - Jan 9 with 1378 views | TGRRRSSS |
When it comes to the customer service element of thing it really is Lee Hoos's weakest point as CEO - so his views when it comes to Loftus Road I notice are more or less "this is impossible".
My point about when logging in and they haven't sorted out the fact I am a member being a case in point, as a result of this I have been unable to purchase a ticket I was entitled to purchase and I am still furious about it, especially when he bleats on about the club leaking money!
To be clear this was for a HOME game!
IN this respect Hoos has much to do.
That being said the reality is if you don't adapt you will die and what Annti says about LR is correct, it doesn't bother me, we're in London I rarely buy food or drink at the ground anyway as you can get much better quality elsewhere, doesn't help the club though.
It's also the case I suspect eventually LR will fail to get safety certificates then we will be fckd.
Are last proper work on the ground was post Hillsborough I guess, everything else has been small fry and Flavio putting in the odd glitter ball or something and stuff to suit PL standards for media [Post edited 9 Jan 2022 17:16]
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 22:06 - Jan 10 with 1255 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 16:30 - Jan 9 by stainrods_elbow |
Many of these clubs - Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton, Southampton etc. - had larger or much larger 'core' fan bases than their original grounds could accommodate, which I don't believe is the case with QPR, so of course their att. figures went up. On the other hand, Hull City are just one example of a club who are pulling in a similar number now to when they left Boothferry Park. There are a large number of variables involved - league standing, owners, etc. etc. If we were to move in to a spanky 30k capacity stadium tomorrow, (in or out of the borough) and people think suddenly 20k+ would be turning up week after week (however big the legroom is), they're delusional. |
Stainrod,
While I don't agree with you about Hoos, who I think is doing an excellent job, I think your posting on the issue or a ground move is extremely important. I worry, and always have worried, about the ownership's motives in moving us to a new ground.
I'm not saying it's not necessary but we will be going from a situation where we own our own ground to an uncertain situation where we may not.
One of two things are happening, imo:
1) The ownership is funding a loss-making club out of love, or
2) They're doing it for profit
Either is possible, so while I have no specific reason to doubt their motives I think it is wise and healthy to do so. Our history tells us why. |  |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 22:16 - Jan 10 with 1223 views | switchingcode |
Went to Port Vale Saturday and the home fans sung where were you when you were shit us oldens looked at each other and said her.Good turnout of about 1400 Bees mostly the old lot the new PL fans will all be at Liverpool Saturday | | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 22:28 - Jan 10 with 1195 views | kensalriser |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 16:30 - Jan 9 by stainrods_elbow |
Many of these clubs - Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Brighton, Southampton etc. - had larger or much larger 'core' fan bases than their original grounds could accommodate, which I don't believe is the case with QPR, so of course their att. figures went up. On the other hand, Hull City are just one example of a club who are pulling in a similar number now to when they left Boothferry Park. There are a large number of variables involved - league standing, owners, etc. etc. If we were to move in to a spanky 30k capacity stadium tomorrow, (in or out of the borough) and people think suddenly 20k+ would be turning up week after week (however big the legroom is), they're delusional. |
Well done on choosing Hull, whose owners have been in a war of attrition with the fans for several years.
How often do you visit the ground you love so much by the way? | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 22:34 - Jan 10 with 1181 views | daveB |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 14:41 - Jan 8 by stainrods_elbow |
On top of which, Hoos has done next to nothing to improve the stadium in any way as far as I can see, which is one good enough reason why I think he should go. |
It's not popular I know and will be replaced next season but the lower loft has really improved in recent years. Much better food, facilities for the kids. Pictures up of the clubs history and even has San Miguel on tap now. |  | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:02 - Jan 10 with 1144 views | Stainrod |
My near name-sake Stainrod's Elbow describes himself as a "fanatic". That's great. But the very qualities that make you a fanatic make you entirely unfit to make a rational judgement about how to run a club. You are entitled to want it to remain some some exclusive old school appreciation society harking back to your lost youth. But the club management you seem to hold in such low esteem have to grow the fan base (to cover rising costs) simply to keep the club alive, let alone grow it (as for profits, hilarious! Has anybody ever made money out of Rangers, bar Mark Hughes's agent?) Mr Elbow, you are ruled by your heart (in a romantic and appealing way, I fully acknowledge, as befits one of your great city Dublin); but if Lee Hoos came out with the stuff you have been saying I would be truly terrified.
Mine was the original post you objected to and you characterised the likes of me as corporate cynics. I think we hail from the same era of supporting the club and the very things you find so evocative about the Rangers, so do I, and that probably goes for just about everyone fanatical enough to post on here. I am not some soulless accountant from Surrey, or I would support Chelsea (no offence meant to any accountants btw...).
But the very fact that we are of that era proves the point. We are getting on (I'm 53, first went in '78). And we were all walk-ins once. I mentioned I am bringing someone for the first time (a woman as it happens), and how I suspect there will be a lot she doesn't like such as the leg room. Back when we were kids hardly any women went. That excluded half the population before you started. If you want to grow the fanbase - and most fans don't see that as anything cynical, they are proud when we get a big crowd - then you have to make it more appealing to people coming the first time. Lets not slip into the language (and to be clear, I appreciate you didn't say this, but I have seen it on other boards) of old time fans complaining about anyone who wasn't there back in the day. I even saw someone on WATBR specifically moaning about Koreans, Swedes, etc turning up - the kind of attitude that stopped me posting there after many years, btw.
Whereas what I love about Rangers at its best is that it is a friendly club, not some snarling cesspit of idiots like Millwall. I enjoy meeting Rs fans and almost always get on with them. If I meet a new supporter, I welcome them, and want to encourage them back. I don't want supporting Rangers to be some secret sect only followed by a handful of ageing fanatics who denounce newcomers as imposters - I would love to see supporting us embraced by a new generation, of all nationalities, different backgrounds, women as well as men (and some of them can be gay too - I don't give a monkeys). You will have noticed that there is a lot more going on now than when we were kids - clubs have to work much harder to captivate the interest of the next generation. You might hate using the word "customer" to describe someone paying to watch QPR, but they are one (they might also be a supporter but the other poster is entirely justified in being frustrated that he can't buy a ticket because the club can't get its customer service right). The problem at Loftus Rd is not that we are regarded as customers but that we are taken for granted and treated like dirt most of the time. But if the club could make the entire experience smoother, I genuinely think it would make it a better day out for all supporters - old ones like us as well as youngsters.
Its a bit like pubs - lots of men of a certain age grumbled when women/ children were allowed in, smoking was banned etc. Well, give me a modern pub any day over one of those horrible old places that used to exclude people with signs at the door saying "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs".
By all means look back - I'm as sentimental as the next fellow - but lets not actually GO back: a dangerous thought here, but we could actually make supporting Rangers even better, because things in life can actually improve if you try.... [Post edited 10 Jan 2022 23:12]
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:06 - Jan 10 with 1131 views | Stainrod |
Apologies that post was WAY too long and Clive would be fully justified in banning me for it... | | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:34 - Jan 10 with 1080 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Good post, Stainrod. | |
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| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 00:32 - Jan 11 with 1035 views | Northernr |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:06 - Jan 10 by Stainrod |
Apologies that post was WAY too long and Clive would be fully justified in banning me for it... |
Me banning somebody for writing too much would be quite the thing, even if it was bollocks, which this obviously isn't. |  | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 00:58 - Jan 11 with 1014 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 23:06 - Jan 10 by Stainrod |
Apologies that post was WAY too long and Clive would be fully justified in banning me for it... |
It was a fantastic post. I'm much of an age with you (a tad older) and agree with all of it. | | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 03:46 - Jan 11 with 977 views | bob566 |
I want us to get promoted but not spend a penny. Take the money. Get beaten every week. Get relegated, build a new stadium with the cash. Build a f*** off academy and come back better prepared. It's what WBA and Norwich do. | | | |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 09:59 - Jan 11 with 839 views | BklynRanger |
| Next Season- Nightmare Promotion on 03:46 - Jan 11 by bob566 |
I want us to get promoted but not spend a penny. Take the money. Get beaten every week. Get relegated, build a new stadium with the cash. Build a f*** off academy and come back better prepared. It's what WBA and Norwich do. |
That's a definite option of course, but to be honest, selfishly perhaps, I don't know if I can face a season like that at this point. If we're going to do that I'd rather we not get promoted for a year or two and give ourselves a slightly better chance of staying up with a stronger-again squad. Granted we're not talking about a huge increase in our chances but it could make a difference.
On top of that we'd enjoy the psychological benefit of a season or two further of winning football. I've never seen the problem with being a reasonable sized fish in a small pond.
Saying all that, if it was to happen this season I'm now at the point of "fcuk it then, let's see what happens this time". |  | | |
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