| The Sending Off 20:12 - Sep 19 with 11730 views | WatfordR |
A few different opinions I've seen. Having seen footage of the incident, my feeling is that if the laws say that's a sending off, the game really has "gone".
Cirkin has stretched to get his foot to the ball. He's reached it and the ball is clearly gone before the Preston player gets anywhere near the scene. I can't see any evidence that Cirkin is out of control, and if anything I felt the Preston player collided into Cirkin, and it might even have been a foul the other way.
I am genuinely incredulous. |  | | |  |
| The Sending Off on 14:12 - Sep 20 with 1933 views | Match82 |
| The Sending Off on 13:31 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
This thread is also yet another good indication of what a crock VAR is.
50 knowledgeable football fans watch the same incident multiple times on slow motion replays from different angles. Zero consensus. |
3 people in the booth, one replay, if they agree it's overturned if they don't call stands. Get the obviously wrong ones corrected, let the rest stand. None of this toenail nonsense. 20 seconds max, done. Get back to the game.
The problem with VAR is that we started pushing this as the solution to all wrong decisions in a game that by its nature is incredibly subjective so that's impossible. |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:13 - Sep 20 with 1930 views | Mick_S |
| The Sending Off on 14:01 - Sep 20 by daveB |
The ref does only get to see it once but to me you could give a red to Cirkin, a yellow to Cirkin or not even giver a free kick and you could make a case for all 3.
The Preston players got him the red card [Post edited 20 Sep 14:08]
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Just watched the above clip. I get why the red was given especially given the usual Preston histrionics and a ref and lino out of their depth.
That was a yellow for me. Nasty one, especially given the body shape of the Preston player, who I believe got up to take the free kick.
Ref should have consulted the linesman. Whether the outcome would have been any different, I don’t know.
I’m not really big into disliking other clubs, but that lot really make my tits itch. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| The Sending Off on 14:14 - Sep 20 with 1923 views | Northernr |
| The Sending Off on 14:12 - Sep 20 by Match82 |
3 people in the booth, one replay, if they agree it's overturned if they don't call stands. Get the obviously wrong ones corrected, let the rest stand. None of this toenail nonsense. 20 seconds max, done. Get back to the game.
The problem with VAR is that we started pushing this as the solution to all wrong decisions in a game that by its nature is incredibly subjective so that's impossible. |
It bottomed out last night with the disallowed goal at Forest. |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:19 - Sep 20 with 1884 views | lassel |
| The Sending Off on 14:01 - Sep 20 by daveB |
The ref does only get to see it once but to me you could give a red to Cirkin, a yellow to Cirkin or not even giver a free kick and you could make a case for all 3.
The Preston players got him the red card [Post edited 20 Sep 14:08]
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From the angle the ref has, there is no scenario he doesn’t give a free kick. As Norf says, a stronger ref might have made a snap decision of yellow and calmed the situation down. At match speed though from the refs position, you really can’t argue that much with a red. A needless lunge from a player trying too hard to rectify a minor error. |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:19 - Sep 20 with 1879 views | rbee |
| The Sending Off on 14:11 - Sep 20 by NW5Hoop |
Couldn't tell from the West Paddock, but seeing it on TV, it looked a red all day long, regardless of what happened with the ball. He cleaned out the fella's legs and his studs were high. If someone had done that to one of our players, we'd have all thought it was a red, without exception, I suspect. |
I paused the tackle last night and when the ball leaves the two of them both of the Preston players legs are still behind Cirkin's left leg. His right leg doesn't come in to play. |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:29 - Sep 20 with 1833 views | AshteadR |
If you lunge in, with a straight leg, out of control and studs up, you’re asking for trouble.
Wasn’t sure it was a red in the ground (JU) but having seen the replays, in the modern game, that looks a nailed on red to me. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:58 - Sep 20 with 1701 views | CLAREMAN1995 |
| The Sending Off on 14:14 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
It bottomed out last night with the disallowed goal at Forest. |
It should have bottomed out with the yellow card for Rice the clearest red card ever yet no VAR intervention or on field review. Was it because the game was basically over or the Brighton guy pushed Rice either way does not matter Rice should have walked IMO.
Cirkin might be highly touted from his former fans but has not hit his stride here yet and will get the max ban here I suspect unless we appeal |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 14:58 - Sep 20 with 1710 views | Stocktake |
| The Sending Off on 14:29 - Sep 20 by AshteadR |
If you lunge in, with a straight leg, out of control and studs up, you’re asking for trouble.
Wasn’t sure it was a red in the ground (JU) but having seen the replays, in the modern game, that looks a nailed on red to me. |
The studs are up but come nowhere near the Preston player it's just a collision of bodies due to the Preston player trying to get the block in. Not dangerous so straightforward yellow card decision. In a way it's a good case for VAR as there is no way the ref had a proper view from that side . |  | | |
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| The Sending Off on 15:13 - Sep 20 with 1655 views | terryb |
Five pages & it must be close to a 50/50 split as to whether it should have been a sending off & yet some people think we should appeal it!
Personally, I've seen angles that it didn't look like a free kick & I've seen angles that it looked like a definite sending off. I thought the look on Cirkin's face looked like he thought he'd be off & that probably is the biggest clue IMO.
It is no defence that his "studs up" didn't make contact with the player. They don't have to! Studs being raised is reason enough for a referee to take that action. Whether it should be might be a different debate.
I do know that if the challenge had been reversed, I'd have wanted the Preston player to have been sent off. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 16:24 - Sep 20 with 1534 views | Stocktake |
| The Sending Off on 15:13 - Sep 20 by terryb |
Five pages & it must be close to a 50/50 split as to whether it should have been a sending off & yet some people think we should appeal it!
Personally, I've seen angles that it didn't look like a free kick & I've seen angles that it looked like a definite sending off. I thought the look on Cirkin's face looked like he thought he'd be off & that probably is the biggest clue IMO.
It is no defence that his "studs up" didn't make contact with the player. They don't have to! Studs being raised is reason enough for a referee to take that action. Whether it should be might be a different debate.
I do know that if the challenge had been reversed, I'd have wanted the Preston player to have been sent off. |
I get it, but if a player slid in studs up to put a ball out of play, for example, and there was no one near him then there's no way the ref is giving red . | | | |
| The Sending Off on 16:42 - Sep 20 with 1494 views | QuitePossiblyRaving |
Interesting debate. I don't really know what the the answer is, but I do know he gave the ref a decision to make in an area of the pitch, and time in the game, where he probably didn't need to.
I suppose a lot of this hinges on what the definition of 'excessive force' and 'out of control' is.
Have tried looking up the rules. FA website says, "“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent."
Note it doesn't say did injur opponent, or anything about stud position etc.
Considerations include:
-Speed
-Intensity
-Force
-Degree of control
-Point and extent of contact (full/limited)
Considerations when contact is made after playing the ball include:
-Controlled action to play the ball
-Available space into which challenge is made
-Awareness and consideration of opponent and their safety
-Is the challenge clearly reckless (yellow card)
or involves excessive force (red card)
Based on that definition, I can see why a red was given. The way Cirkin clatters into his legs, was with enough force to cause an injury. Their player, by contrast, was in control and standing, and wasn't in any danger of causing harm.
I'm not sure I'd appeal it if I was the club, even though another ref may have given it as a yellow. I certainly don't imagine it would be turned over on appeal. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 17:00 - Sep 20 with 1454 views | Beejnewark |
Not a red. Didn't give an obvious handball when looking straight at it. Absolute clown show. At least we scored after the one mistake he made in our favour. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 17:49 - Sep 20 with 1341 views | davman |
Also TK1 said above, I find it strange that there are some on here who don't see that as a red. At normal speed it looked like it to me and as Norf says, it certainly gave the ref a decision to be made.
Reckless for me, both feet off the ground, not a lot of control and studs up.
Most of you realised that he misses the player only because you have seen repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident.
At full speed, live, if roles had been reversed I would have been apoplectic if their player stayed on the pitch. |  |
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| The Sending Off on 18:13 - Sep 20 with 1252 views | ChrisNW6 |
| The Sending Off on 17:49 - Sep 20 by davman |
Also TK1 said above, I find it strange that there are some on here who don't see that as a red. At normal speed it looked like it to me and as Norf says, it certainly gave the ref a decision to be made.
Reckless for me, both feet off the ground, not a lot of control and studs up.
Most of you realised that he misses the player only because you have seen repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident.
At full speed, live, if roles had been reversed I would have been apoplectic if their player stayed on the pitch. |
Not arguing about the red, but his trailing foot was always on the ground. Looked far worse than the actual contact that was made. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 18:23 - Sep 20 with 1224 views | Boston |
| The Sending Off on 17:49 - Sep 20 by davman |
Also TK1 said above, I find it strange that there are some on here who don't see that as a red. At normal speed it looked like it to me and as Norf says, it certainly gave the ref a decision to be made.
Reckless for me, both feet off the ground, not a lot of control and studs up.
Most of you realised that he misses the player only because you have seen repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident.
At full speed, live, if roles had been reversed I would have been apoplectic if their player stayed on the pitch. |
That's why we don't allow you to be in charge of our games, Dav.  | |
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| The Sending Off on 18:26 - Sep 20 with 1211 views | E17hoop |
| The Sending Off on 17:49 - Sep 20 by davman |
Also TK1 said above, I find it strange that there are some on here who don't see that as a red. At normal speed it looked like it to me and as Norf says, it certainly gave the ref a decision to be made.
Reckless for me, both feet off the ground, not a lot of control and studs up.
Most of you realised that he misses the player only because you have seen repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident.
At full speed, live, if roles had been reversed I would have been apoplectic if their player stayed on the pitch. |
And that's why the appeal will succeed; because repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident shows he took the ball which rebounded off the PNE player's shin, and the collision afterwards that made it look worse. |  |
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| The Sending Off on 18:27 - Sep 20 with 1205 views | Geoff78 |
| The Sending Off on 17:49 - Sep 20 by davman |
Also TK1 said above, I find it strange that there are some on here who don't see that as a red. At normal speed it looked like it to me and as Norf says, it certainly gave the ref a decision to be made.
Reckless for me, both feet off the ground, not a lot of control and studs up.
Most of you realised that he misses the player only because you have seen repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident.
At full speed, live, if roles had been reversed I would have been apoplectic if their player stayed on the pitch. |
Clear red for me. If you dive in recklessly (I can't see how it wasn't reckless) you risk causing serious damage. The fact that the PNE player was just a millisecond late so didn't get the studs on the shin is irrelevant. Cirkin took the risk diving in like that.
Players losing control and lunging like that are nearly always dangerous. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 18:37 - Sep 20 with 1178 views | Watford_Ranger |
| The Sending Off on 18:27 - Sep 20 by Geoff78 |
Clear red for me. If you dive in recklessly (I can't see how it wasn't reckless) you risk causing serious damage. The fact that the PNE player was just a millisecond late so didn't get the studs on the shin is irrelevant. Cirkin took the risk diving in like that.
Players losing control and lunging like that are nearly always dangerous. |
Reckless (yellow) - acting complete disregard to the danger or consequences for the opponent.
Excessive (red) - exceeding necessary force and endangering the safety of an opponent (Serious Foul Play).
I think taking into account how he catches him and the force of the challenge it’s closer to the former. It’s the reaction of the player and his teammates that sways the referee. | | | |
| The Sending Off on 18:45 - Sep 20 with 1154 views | terryb |
| The Sending Off on 18:26 - Sep 20 by E17hoop |
And that's why the appeal will succeed; because repeated, slowed down, close up footage of the incident shows he took the ball which rebounded off the PNE player's shin, and the collision afterwards that made it look worse. |
I doubt very much that the club will appeal & if they did, the chances of winning it are low.
Although approx 50% on this thread agree with you that it shouldn't have been a sending off, I can't recall anyone else thinking that an appeal would win. [Post edited 20 Sep 18:46]
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| The Sending Off on 19:13 - Sep 20 with 1052 views | Mick_S |
| The Sending Off on 18:45 - Sep 20 by terryb |
I doubt very much that the club will appeal & if they did, the chances of winning it are low.
Although approx 50% on this thread agree with you that it shouldn't have been a sending off, I can't recall anyone else thinking that an appeal would win. [Post edited 20 Sep 18:46]
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I know nothing about this stuff, Terry, but my guess is that it’s better left alone whilst the club get everyone fit* during the dull, dull, international break from proper real football.
* err. | |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| The Sending Off on 21:38 - Sep 20 with 821 views | Lblock |
In ground a half drunk me said red card soon as it happened
Subsequently seeing the footage it’s a bit debatable but I still think it’s a red
I’m still not feeling Cirkin but that’s for another time.
Have to say absolute props to Adamson. He’s doing himself all sorts of favours when coming in on either flank. I do fear for him if needed at LB next match ….. still me fella called Bowen isn’t it??? |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| The Sending Off on 13:24 - Sep 21 with 354 views | Superhoops2808 |
| The Sending Off on 21:38 - Sep 20 by Lblock |
In ground a half drunk me said red card soon as it happened
Subsequently seeing the footage it’s a bit debatable but I still think it’s a red
I’m still not feeling Cirkin but that’s for another time.
Have to say absolute props to Adamson. He’s doing himself all sorts of favours when coming in on either flank. I do fear for him if needed at LB next match ….. still me fella called Bowen isn’t it??? |
Mbengue switch to LB v Bowen... That would be highly entertaining  |  | | |
| The Sending Off on 17:18 - Sep 21 with 255 views | Match82 |
| The Sending Off on 16:24 - Sep 20 by Stocktake |
I get it, but if a player slid in studs up to put a ball out of play, for example, and there was no one near him then there's no way the ref is giving red . |
Well yeah, because it wouldn't be a dangerous challenge then | | | |
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