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Negative views and match attendance on 09:27 - Sep 17 by Chief
"Cooper i gone. He walked out."
Yesterday's revelations regarding the club still paying him cast doubt on that aspersion.
It's not an aspersion, Cooper has gone. His severance package doesn't cast doubt on anything.
Now this fitness thing, Martin took over on August 1st, that's 4 weeks after pre season started and that 4 weeks when the bulk of fitness and conditioning work would be done. However, if any players coming in after Martin took over aren't fit enough we can't blame anyone at Swansea.
I won't argue that stats aren't a big part of the game, they clearly are a very important tool in todays game. A tool though, that ois what they are, they are not the be all and end all, they do not tell the whole story. If they did then why bother with scouting? In fact stats can be very misleading. Take Grimes Passing stats, they look very good, on paper they are but a fan in the ground will see where he is passing the ball and make a different judgement. Now shots, against Millwall was it 12 shots 4 on target, what the stats don't tell you is how near or far away those shots are. A fan in the ground (or even one watching thousands of miles away on tv) will see a near miss and maybe say good effort, but a shot that goes flying 20 yards wide will draw derision but the stats judge them both the same, 'off target' on the other hand, a shot on target is always a shot on target even if it's a 20 yard dribbler the keeper could catch with his eyes shut. The possession stat now, it's much more useful when you have the territory stat too, after all what use is 70% possession if it's all ij your own half passing the ball backwards and sideways. That was the big difference against Hull, a large chunk of our 69% possessionwas in Hulls half, penning them in their own penalty area for decent spells.
Stats are obiously very useful but they never tell the whole story. As the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Statistics can be used to say whatever you want to say and can be used equally to present a positive or a negative picture.
Whatever certain posters saymaybe the best judge of how it is going is the crowds attitude, at Millwall there were a few boos but most people were either more positive or agreeing that Martin deserves a bit more time before being judged, that is not a statistical fact, I cannot represent that in percentages but only as hearsay from listening to people around me both in my seat, at half time at the shop and on leaving the game. I heard very few people moaning. That seems to be the representative view on here. Only the soulless, the negative and the Cooper lovers are determined to bring down gloom on Martin before he's had a fair crack. In another month, if things haven't definitvely improved then there will be plenty more people saying the change has failed. I may even be among them but for now I am still supporting our new manager and what the club is trying to do.
Negative views and match attendance on 11:34 - Sep 17 by Catullus
It's not an aspersion, Cooper has gone. His severance package doesn't cast doubt on anything.
Now this fitness thing, Martin took over on August 1st, that's 4 weeks after pre season started and that 4 weeks when the bulk of fitness and conditioning work would be done. However, if any players coming in after Martin took over aren't fit enough we can't blame anyone at Swansea.
I won't argue that stats aren't a big part of the game, they clearly are a very important tool in todays game. A tool though, that ois what they are, they are not the be all and end all, they do not tell the whole story. If they did then why bother with scouting? In fact stats can be very misleading. Take Grimes Passing stats, they look very good, on paper they are but a fan in the ground will see where he is passing the ball and make a different judgement. Now shots, against Millwall was it 12 shots 4 on target, what the stats don't tell you is how near or far away those shots are. A fan in the ground (or even one watching thousands of miles away on tv) will see a near miss and maybe say good effort, but a shot that goes flying 20 yards wide will draw derision but the stats judge them both the same, 'off target' on the other hand, a shot on target is always a shot on target even if it's a 20 yard dribbler the keeper could catch with his eyes shut. The possession stat now, it's much more useful when you have the territory stat too, after all what use is 70% possession if it's all ij your own half passing the ball backwards and sideways. That was the big difference against Hull, a large chunk of our 69% possessionwas in Hulls half, penning them in their own penalty area for decent spells.
Stats are obiously very useful but they never tell the whole story. As the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Statistics can be used to say whatever you want to say and can be used equally to present a positive or a negative picture.
Whatever certain posters saymaybe the best judge of how it is going is the crowds attitude, at Millwall there were a few boos but most people were either more positive or agreeing that Martin deserves a bit more time before being judged, that is not a statistical fact, I cannot represent that in percentages but only as hearsay from listening to people around me both in my seat, at half time at the shop and on leaving the game. I heard very few people moaning. That seems to be the representative view on here. Only the soulless, the negative and the Cooper lovers are determined to bring down gloom on Martin before he's had a fair crack. In another month, if things haven't definitvely improved then there will be plenty more people saying the change has failed. I may even be among them but for now I am still supporting our new manager and what the club is trying to do.
It wasn’t 4 weeks, on another thread I wasn’t allowed to round 19.56% up to 20% so I must keep that standard and say it was “over 3 weeks”. The players that have come in have nothing to do with us fitness wise, the handful of legacy players that play don’t seem particularly unfit, if they are then he has had plenty of time to get them up to speed including a lengthy international break.
The fitness thing is a fallacy.
Stats are a massive part of the game, huge. Cannot be understated. But whenever they are attempted to be criticisied someone always points to a stat that nobody is using “Gower most creative in Europe, etc etc”.
Nobody is taking stats without context. The stats being used on this site are to compliment opinions based on what people have seen. We both know that. Nobody is advocating stats without vision, so the scouting point is moot.
Who is determined to bring Martin down? Can you name some? Do you have an examples and preferably any quotes?
That seems to be the latest in a long line of myths.
What I find amazing is you admit you may well agree with them in a month. So your whole difference between them and you, is you want to wait 4 weeks more.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Negative views and match attendance on 09:54 - Sep 17 by jackrmee
Haven't heard them revelations. Can you link me up please mate?
Check out the content of this thread....to sum up Cooper apparantly still on the payroll, and was going to be sacked?....so to say he bottled it and quit seems a little way off the mark!
Negative views and match attendance on 11:47 - Sep 17 by Dr_Parnassus
It wasn’t 4 weeks, on another thread I wasn’t allowed to round 19.56% up to 20% so I must keep that standard and say it was “over 3 weeks”. The players that have come in have nothing to do with us fitness wise, the handful of legacy players that play don’t seem particularly unfit, if they are then he has had plenty of time to get them up to speed including a lengthy international break.
The fitness thing is a fallacy.
Stats are a massive part of the game, huge. Cannot be understated. But whenever they are attempted to be criticisied someone always points to a stat that nobody is using “Gower most creative in Europe, etc etc”.
Nobody is taking stats without context. The stats being used on this site are to compliment opinions based on what people have seen. We both know that. Nobody is advocating stats without vision, so the scouting point is moot.
Who is determined to bring Martin down? Can you name some? Do you have an examples and preferably any quotes?
That seems to be the latest in a long line of myths.
What I find amazing is you admit you may well agree with them in a month. So your whole difference between them and you, is you want to wait 4 weeks more.
Who wants to bring Martin down well AC and OHL seem determined to naysay him and you keep claiming logic and common sense but your opinions are always on the more negative side, you claim it's reality backed up by stats of course and we all knwo how much you value your own opinion.
You said pre season startedon July 4th and Martin joined on August 1st, call me a liar for one day short of 4 weeks, I don't mind.
I'm not trying to understate stats but I am saying don't overstate them either which is what I believe you do.
Context is always important but scouting is definitely not moot. A scout may look at stats to see who he might scout but still, he will go and watch the player. Not many players get signed without being physically scouted. I do remember Liverpool famously signing a player without going to watch him and getting a lot of egg on their faces.
The whole difference between "them and me" is that I am giving time for Martin to prove he's the right man for the job, it's not a definite 4 weeks either (maybe I should be pedantic and point out a month can be nearly 5 weeks!) because in 4 weeks things may have noticeably improved again but still not be perfect, as if perfect will ever happen.
You projected the current stats to say we are in relegation form, that's something I'm not doing, I'm waiting to see, in another month we could still be unbeaten but only won 2 more games and still be around the relegation zone but if things are still going in the right direction, Martin will get an extension. That's the difference, I am not judging the whole season on the first 7/8 weeks, it's a rolling assesment and if things turn don't improve or even get worse my opinion will change. A change of opinion is allowed after all. Sticking with a point of view when it's clearly wrong is illogical and nonsensical, don't you think?
Negative views and match attendance on 12:08 - Sep 17 by Catullus
Who wants to bring Martin down well AC and OHL seem determined to naysay him and you keep claiming logic and common sense but your opinions are always on the more negative side, you claim it's reality backed up by stats of course and we all knwo how much you value your own opinion.
You said pre season startedon July 4th and Martin joined on August 1st, call me a liar for one day short of 4 weeks, I don't mind.
I'm not trying to understate stats but I am saying don't overstate them either which is what I believe you do.
Context is always important but scouting is definitely not moot. A scout may look at stats to see who he might scout but still, he will go and watch the player. Not many players get signed without being physically scouted. I do remember Liverpool famously signing a player without going to watch him and getting a lot of egg on their faces.
The whole difference between "them and me" is that I am giving time for Martin to prove he's the right man for the job, it's not a definite 4 weeks either (maybe I should be pedantic and point out a month can be nearly 5 weeks!) because in 4 weeks things may have noticeably improved again but still not be perfect, as if perfect will ever happen.
You projected the current stats to say we are in relegation form, that's something I'm not doing, I'm waiting to see, in another month we could still be unbeaten but only won 2 more games and still be around the relegation zone but if things are still going in the right direction, Martin will get an extension. That's the difference, I am not judging the whole season on the first 7/8 weeks, it's a rolling assesment and if things turn don't improve or even get worse my opinion will change. A change of opinion is allowed after all. Sticking with a point of view when it's clearly wrong is illogical and nonsensical, don't you think?
How are they on the negative side?
We are 20th. If we were 4th and I was complaining, that’s negative. If we are 20th, then concerns are clearly based on actual events and a direct and natural consequence of them.
I’m not calling you a liar, it’s close enough to 4 weeks to me… I was just making a point that if I am not allowed to round 19.56 to 20 then nobody will be rounding, without me pointing it out.
I don’t overstate stats, which ones are you referring to? The stats I use is to back up what I am saying. For example I made the point we played differently against Bristol than we did previously, I was told I was wrong. I showed exactly how by showing the statistics and it mirrored exactly what I said at the time, they are complimentary to my views.
Who isn’t giving Martin time to prove himself? I haven’t seen a single person say they think his time is up and needs to be sacked, despite people being desperate for them to say it.
What I have seen is people saying that the time has come to start critiquing results and performances, I think that’s entirely fair. It’s strange you think a turn around in fortunes will be shoving that down their throats. That’s the beginning of myth building, like the last (and only) time we won in the league this season.
I didn’t project anything, I was showing that the results this far aren’t “acceptable” as claimed, I showed the sort of equivalent form that was, it was not a prediction of what is to come. Just to show what we have seen so far is not acceptable.
Sticking with an opinion when it is wrong is absolutely illogical yes. Which opinion are you suggesting is wrong exactly?
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Negative views and match attendance on 22:34 - Sep 15 by Fireboy2
And to the vast percentage of the swans fans.
We did win games boringly going into our shell after scoring early, this gameplan backfired when we played someone decent, which was a damn shame. We could have finished higher than 4th if we had been positive instead of negative.
And btw what things have I made up?
Again this is so not true See the highlights form the game against Stoke at home last season....we dont look like we go into our shell despite being 1 up
I am sure no one really watched us properly last year...Im not saying things changed a little towards the end but it certainly wasnt the case most of the season
Negative views and match attendance on 12:05 - Sep 17 by vetchonian
Check out the content of this thread....to sum up Cooper apparantly still on the payroll, and was going to be sacked?....so to say he bottled it and quit seems a little way off the mark!
Cooper stupor, Forest cor blimey ! Click above.
For Twitter click below
https://twitter.com/swansea_indy/status/1438512977292894217?s=20
Thanks.
Yeah it does seem like there was more to it. I don't think it was a simple sacking though. Otherwise why would he have stayed on for pre-season, until they found a new manager?
Negative views and match attendance on 12:08 - Sep 17 by Catullus
Who wants to bring Martin down well AC and OHL seem determined to naysay him and you keep claiming logic and common sense but your opinions are always on the more negative side, you claim it's reality backed up by stats of course and we all knwo how much you value your own opinion.
You said pre season startedon July 4th and Martin joined on August 1st, call me a liar for one day short of 4 weeks, I don't mind.
I'm not trying to understate stats but I am saying don't overstate them either which is what I believe you do.
Context is always important but scouting is definitely not moot. A scout may look at stats to see who he might scout but still, he will go and watch the player. Not many players get signed without being physically scouted. I do remember Liverpool famously signing a player without going to watch him and getting a lot of egg on their faces.
The whole difference between "them and me" is that I am giving time for Martin to prove he's the right man for the job, it's not a definite 4 weeks either (maybe I should be pedantic and point out a month can be nearly 5 weeks!) because in 4 weeks things may have noticeably improved again but still not be perfect, as if perfect will ever happen.
You projected the current stats to say we are in relegation form, that's something I'm not doing, I'm waiting to see, in another month we could still be unbeaten but only won 2 more games and still be around the relegation zone but if things are still going in the right direction, Martin will get an extension. That's the difference, I am not judging the whole season on the first 7/8 weeks, it's a rolling assesment and if things turn don't improve or even get worse my opinion will change. A change of opinion is allowed after all. Sticking with a point of view when it's clearly wrong is illogical and nonsensical, don't you think?
OHL is determined to comment as he sees things. Right now is what it’s about. It’s what we are or should be commenting on,not a future that might not be Cat.
Negative views and match attendance on 22:01 - Sep 15 by vetchonian
The only stat that counts is points on the board! Xg or whatever it is a what if stat......actual shots , golas scored and points achieved are actual data as has been shown there is a huge variance between those when this and last season are compared.
Given XG as you say we should have scored less than we conceded yet the opp[osite was the case but that was down to luck.Martin must have been very unlucky then to have finished midtable gien his suoerior xg
bullsh1t
Not so much, Vetchonian. A lot of money is spent on analytics within the game to improve performance, in order to score goals and, as you say, get points on the board. The vast majority of time the analytics line up with what you see there.
xGs are calculated using troves of historical data - thousands of previous shots that were similar to that situation, and seeing how many of those were scored as a result. It’s not a prediction, it’s an extremely accurate statistical indicator and assessment of performance and ability. For example, the expected goals and points tables from last season and pretty much every season typically look almost exactly like the actual point totals. That is because the best teams are typically the best teams, over a full season the stats are remarkably consistent on that -
These align almost exactly with how the final tables looked, with a few clear outliers - us sitting 9th, reflecting the quality of our performances was solidly mid-table, and Brighton sitting at 5th, reflecting their performances were worthy of a European spot. If you actually watched the games of both teams, the data would back up what you saw on the pitch, and that is what it is mostly used for. We were very lucky, having played some turgid football most of the season, and Brighton weren’t, having played some remarkable football but let down by poor finishing. Every other club has essentially the same numbers. Individual player xGs figures are much the same, the amount of goals scored for the vast majority are almost identical to what the xG totals show. It’s when they don’t that is the actual outlier, and it’s no coincidence Brighton sit 4th in the table this year.
But just to break up the analytics talk for a second, I’m not of the view the game can or should be completely assessed with statistics, that was not my intention in posting. I much prefer watching and using my own eyes to analyse what is happening. Read through my posts if you like and you will see what I’m talking about.
I used the statistics to highlight the clear trolling occurring on this board by one poster, something done on an endless basis and predictably following my posts. Using stats to “skew the narrative” about Martin, Cooper and our club, and hypocritically injecting the forum with negative bile constantly is the sad individual’s aim. It’s been noted by pretty much everyone who posts here. It’s all remarkably boring and tired, every thread now inevitably gets ruined by someone who doesn’t support our club on an otherwise excellent Swansea forum.
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Negative views and match attendance on 00:22 - Sep 22 with 283 views
Negative views and match attendance on 11:34 - Sep 17 by Catullus
It's not an aspersion, Cooper has gone. His severance package doesn't cast doubt on anything.
Now this fitness thing, Martin took over on August 1st, that's 4 weeks after pre season started and that 4 weeks when the bulk of fitness and conditioning work would be done. However, if any players coming in after Martin took over aren't fit enough we can't blame anyone at Swansea.
I won't argue that stats aren't a big part of the game, they clearly are a very important tool in todays game. A tool though, that ois what they are, they are not the be all and end all, they do not tell the whole story. If they did then why bother with scouting? In fact stats can be very misleading. Take Grimes Passing stats, they look very good, on paper they are but a fan in the ground will see where he is passing the ball and make a different judgement. Now shots, against Millwall was it 12 shots 4 on target, what the stats don't tell you is how near or far away those shots are. A fan in the ground (or even one watching thousands of miles away on tv) will see a near miss and maybe say good effort, but a shot that goes flying 20 yards wide will draw derision but the stats judge them both the same, 'off target' on the other hand, a shot on target is always a shot on target even if it's a 20 yard dribbler the keeper could catch with his eyes shut. The possession stat now, it's much more useful when you have the territory stat too, after all what use is 70% possession if it's all ij your own half passing the ball backwards and sideways. That was the big difference against Hull, a large chunk of our 69% possessionwas in Hulls half, penning them in their own penalty area for decent spells.
Stats are obiously very useful but they never tell the whole story. As the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Statistics can be used to say whatever you want to say and can be used equally to present a positive or a negative picture.
Whatever certain posters saymaybe the best judge of how it is going is the crowds attitude, at Millwall there were a few boos but most people were either more positive or agreeing that Martin deserves a bit more time before being judged, that is not a statistical fact, I cannot represent that in percentages but only as hearsay from listening to people around me both in my seat, at half time at the shop and on leaving the game. I heard very few people moaning. That seems to be the representative view on here. Only the soulless, the negative and the Cooper lovers are determined to bring down gloom on Martin before he's had a fair crack. In another month, if things haven't definitvely improved then there will be plenty more people saying the change has failed. I may even be among them but for now I am still supporting our new manager and what the club is trying to do.
Spot on, Catallus.
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Negative views and match attendance on 00:24 - Sep 22 with 278 views
Negative views and match attendance on 07:53 - Sep 16 by PatchesOHoulihan
And this is why money destroyed the game
Its like finishing 4th in the premier league -its great to have the cash don't get me wrong, it helps the club survive in these uncertain times for many clubs however I'm an old romantic in football and I'd rather fail by going for it rather than playing it safe
I've no doubt that had Cooper been in charge we'd have won more points by now this season however I'm happy we've rolled the dice as potentially we may get to a point where we could take on anyone in the league and be competitive and not just sit back like we ended up doing at the tail end of last season
Spot on, Patches.
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Negative views and match attendance on 00:25 - Sep 22 with 278 views
Negative views and match attendance on 08:59 - Sep 17 by jackrmee
So when Cooper walked out on us, you'd have rathered get in a defensive, pragmatic manager to continue Cooper' good work in being able to play our defensively equipped players to their best?
You'd prefer Pulis, or McCarthy or the like? Cooper i gone. He walked out. Why would you want someone to come and play Cooper style, or worse?
Or do you think that, after realising the defensive style didn't and wouldn't get us promoted, it may be time to flick the switch and get back to playing football which the players and fans would both enjoy? It may take longer to gain promotion that way, but it's going to be better in the long run.
Spot on, Jackrmee.
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Negative views and match attendance on 00:28 - Sep 22 with 276 views
Negative views and match attendance on 00:19 - Sep 22 by Rock
Not so much, Vetchonian. A lot of money is spent on analytics within the game to improve performance, in order to score goals and, as you say, get points on the board. The vast majority of time the analytics line up with what you see there.
xGs are calculated using troves of historical data - thousands of previous shots that were similar to that situation, and seeing how many of those were scored as a result. It’s not a prediction, it’s an extremely accurate statistical indicator and assessment of performance and ability. For example, the expected goals and points tables from last season and pretty much every season typically look almost exactly like the actual point totals. That is because the best teams are typically the best teams, over a full season the stats are remarkably consistent on that -
These align almost exactly with how the final tables looked, with a few clear outliers - us sitting 9th, reflecting the quality of our performances was solidly mid-table, and Brighton sitting at 5th, reflecting their performances were worthy of a European spot. If you actually watched the games of both teams, the data would back up what you saw on the pitch, and that is what it is mostly used for. We were very lucky, having played some turgid football most of the season, and Brighton weren’t, having played some remarkable football but let down by poor finishing. Every other club has essentially the same numbers. Individual player xGs figures are much the same, the amount of goals scored for the vast majority are almost identical to what the xG totals show. It’s when they don’t that is the actual outlier, and it’s no coincidence Brighton sit 4th in the table this year.
But just to break up the analytics talk for a second, I’m not of the view the game can or should be completely assessed with statistics, that was not my intention in posting. I much prefer watching and using my own eyes to analyse what is happening. Read through my posts if you like and you will see what I’m talking about.
I used the statistics to highlight the clear trolling occurring on this board by one poster, something done on an endless basis and predictably following my posts. Using stats to “skew the narrative” about Martin, Cooper and our club, and hypocritically injecting the forum with negative bile constantly is the sad individual’s aim. It’s been noted by pretty much everyone who posts here. It’s all remarkably boring and tired, every thread now inevitably gets ruined by someone who doesn’t support our club on an otherwise excellent Swansea forum.
Christ, are you still spamming and trolling the forum with this xG nonsense?
It’s been a week since you were called out on it, let it go.
You don’t understand statistics, you parrot guesses and copy and paste them, then have nothing to back that up when challenged other than name calling.
You have clearly had your feelings hurt as I look through your previous posts, you have constantly been sniping and looking for a reaction since.
I am afraid you are going to have to accept that some disagree with you, some know far more than you, not everyone appreciates copy and paste spam and then trolling when someone calls it out. Enough.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
Negative views and match attendance on 00:29 - Sep 22 by Dr_Parnassus
Christ, are you still spamming and trolling the forum with this xG nonsense?
It’s been a week since you were called out on it, let it go.
You don’t understand statistics, you parrot guesses and copy and paste them, then have nothing to back that up when challenged other than name calling.
You have clearly had your feelings hurt as I look through your previous posts, you have constantly been sniping and looking for a reaction since.
I am afraid you are going to have to accept that some disagree with you, some know far more than you, not everyone appreciates copy and paste spam and then trolling when someone calls it out. Enough.
Lol, bueno. Oh the irony.
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Negative views and match attendance on 00:39 - Sep 22 with 256 views
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