| The Big Question 17:24 - Jan 29 with 1801 views | union_jack |
Each time Martin sends his players onto the pitch what are his KPIs?
Is it all about keeping the ball regardless ?
Is it about short sharp passing like you’d do on the training ground or on the pitch before a game?
Does he measure success by number of passes or possession stats?
I’m at a loss. There seems to be actually nothing worked on in training that can translate into attacking football. We pass from right to left then left to right allowing the opposition all the time in the world to set up defensively.
We go forward one step, stop and turn around and pass back.
No one is looking for space to receive the ball.
Our forwards - Piroe and Obafemi - are constantly offside. Is that them going too quickly or slow distribution behind them?
I have absolutely no idea. I’m not sure Martin has but if he does he’s keeping it close to his chest. |  |
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| The Big Question on 17:29 - Jan 29 with 1412 views | Kilkennyjack |
I would love Brian Clough to give you an answer.
KPI’s ? Wtf ? |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| The Big Question on 17:31 - Jan 29 with 1402 views | Treforys_Jack |
| The Big Question on 17:29 - Jan 29 by Kilkennyjack |
I would love Brian Clough to give you an answer.
KPI’s ? Wtf ? |
Everything has KPI's, even plaid. |  | | |
| The Big Question on 17:37 - Jan 29 with 1381 views | union_jack |
| The Big Question on 17:29 - Jan 29 by Kilkennyjack |
I would love Brian Clough to give you an answer.
KPI’s ? Wtf ? |
Yes, a bit public sector I’ve got to admitðŸ˜. But call it what you like, what does he count as achievements in a game? | |
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| The Big Question on 17:53 - Jan 29 with 1325 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The Big Question on 17:37 - Jan 29 by union_jack |
Yes, a bit public sector I’ve got to admitðŸ˜. But call it what you like, what does he count as achievements in a game? |
Clearly not winning or scoring goals. |  |
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| The Big Question on 17:59 - Jan 29 with 1292 views | onehunglow |
| The Big Question on 17:53 - Jan 29 by felixstowe_jack |
Clearly not winning or scoring goals. |
Passing stats to help him get his next job. | |
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| The Big Question on 18:01 - Jan 29 with 1302 views | jojaca |
It doesn't take a genuis to work out with his starting line up that we were getting f all today. There were no goals in that line up apart from Piroe. Five defenders with three defensive midfielders and a player struggling for match fitness and to be honest not seen anything yet from Wolf to suggest he is upgrade on Paterson. |  |
| Even when you know, you never know? |
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| The Big Question on 18:12 - Jan 29 with 1277 views | Treforys_Jack |
| The Big Question on 18:01 - Jan 29 by jojaca |
It doesn't take a genuis to work out with his starting line up that we were getting f all today. There were no goals in that line up apart from Piroe. Five defenders with three defensive midfielders and a player struggling for match fitness and to be honest not seen anything yet from Wolf to suggest he is upgrade on Paterson. |
This. | | | |
| The Big Question on 19:17 - Jan 29 with 1177 views | STID2017 |
| The Big Question on 18:01 - Jan 29 by jojaca |
It doesn't take a genuis to work out with his starting line up that we were getting f all today. There were no goals in that line up apart from Piroe. Five defenders with three defensive midfielders and a player struggling for match fitness and to be honest not seen anything yet from Wolf to suggest he is upgrade on Paterson. |
If Paterson ends up going over the next couple of days, or worse staying but being kept away from the first team, then the management needs to take a long hard look at itself.
Surely it is little coincidence that Piroe's lack of goals has coincided with no Pato ?
"No Pato, no Piroe, no party" |  |
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| The Big Question on 20:56 - Jan 29 with 1117 views | Dewi1jack |
Have to agree with the OP.
This "brand?????" of passing football is a continent away from the game that the Tapas waiter had here.
Seems to be "pass out from the back" no matter what, even if it leads to good chances for the opposition. |  |
| If you wake up breathing, thats a good start to your day and you'll make many thousands of people envious. |
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| The Big Question on 21:34 - Jan 29 with 1073 views | guthrieintherain |
| The Big Question on 17:59 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
Passing stats to help him get his next job. |
I do think he fancies himself as the next Potter mates as well.
Monday is massive for us we need players in and not bench warmers. | |
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| The Big Question on 22:20 - Jan 29 with 1008 views | Catullus |
Our forwards make a run and our midfielders often take all day about trying a pass. Indeed if it's Grimes he usually declines the attacking pass and turns backwards. It's getting annoying seeing Piroe making forward runs that are ignored or the pass is slow coming meaning he's gone offside.
As already noted, Piroe's drop in return coincides with no Pato but it's Martin's job to solve that. Our manager though seems short on ideas.
Here's an idea, rest Piroe Tuesday and try Oba and Joseph up front, fresh legs, a bit of pace and maybe effort and tell our midfield (which badly missed Downes) to go for the forward passes.
Our determination to keep possession is stifling our attack, making us slow and predictable. | |
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| The Big Question on 23:17 - Jan 29 with 952 views | STID2017 |
| The Big Question on 22:20 - Jan 29 by Catullus |
Our forwards make a run and our midfielders often take all day about trying a pass. Indeed if it's Grimes he usually declines the attacking pass and turns backwards. It's getting annoying seeing Piroe making forward runs that are ignored or the pass is slow coming meaning he's gone offside.
As already noted, Piroe's drop in return coincides with no Pato but it's Martin's job to solve that. Our manager though seems short on ideas.
Here's an idea, rest Piroe Tuesday and try Oba and Joseph up front, fresh legs, a bit of pace and maybe effort and tell our midfield (which badly missed Downes) to go for the forward passes.
Our determination to keep possession is stifling our attack, making us slow and predictable. |
Reading the statements tonight I get the impression that decisions and discussions with and about Pato are going on above his pay grade.
Seems RM patently wants to see Monday come and go with Pato staying so he can begin working with him again ? | |
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| The Big Question on 23:22 - Jan 29 with 950 views | max936 |
| The Big Question on 17:59 - Jan 29 by onehunglow |
Passing stats to help him get his next job. |
Its Bollox, pts on the board are what matters and a point every other game or 3 pts every 2/3/4 games ain't gonna impress anyone, he needs a massive improvement. [Post edited 30 Jan 2022 11:30]
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| The Big Question on 23:46 - Jan 29 with 932 views | max936 |
| The Big Question on 23:17 - Jan 29 by STID2017 |
Reading the statements tonight I get the impression that decisions and discussions with and about Pato are going on above his pay grade.
Seems RM patently wants to see Monday come and go with Pato staying so he can begin working with him again ? |
Martin is deluded if he thinks Paterson is gonna knuckle down, he'll; either be gone or stay and train with the u23's,unless the SCFC hierarchy reach an agreement where he getting ex
amount coinage in his arse pockets. | |
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| The Big Question on 00:23 - Jan 30 with 918 views | KeithHaynes |
| The Big Question on 23:46 - Jan 29 by max936 |
Martin is deluded if he thinks Paterson is gonna knuckle down, he'll; either be gone or stay and train with the u23's,unless the SCFC hierarchy reach an agreement where he getting ex
amount coinage in his arse pockets. |
Paterson if he stays will be no better than Fulton, if he stays. Both are average if that championship footballers. But better than Korey Smith. So that’s three we don’t need. Sorry four, I forgot Liam Walsh. |  |
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| The Big Question on 02:34 - Jan 30 with 880 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I was talking about KPI’s with Jackrmee in September before he “rebranded” to another username.
I was making the point that Martin’s KPI’s seem wildly different to ours and the club need to introduce their own, they are the bosses of the whole club, Martin is just the boss of the players.
I did some research on his MK Dons stint and it seemed strikingly obvious that if he is able to say “we dominated” then that’s good enough for him and the performance or result won’t need explaining away or have the benefit of further scrutiny.
That suggests to me he means ‘dominate possession’, which of course is a mile away from “dominating the game”. I would suggest most clubs play us with a mindset to allow us possession so they can press and create traps in dangerous areas, sometimes that situation is akin to them having possession despite it being at our feet. That isn’t dominating the game.
You will hear that a lot in defeat or a draw “we dominated”.
That’s simply all he looks at, and I am getting concerned about his deeper game analysis and understanding, hence why we aren’t seeing wingers, hence why we aren’t going long when the opportunities are there, hence why half the team is out of position and hence why he isn’t learning when things present themselves that should obviously be learned from.
It’s all about stats and getting noticed. Possession and passing numbers; that is literally us in a nutshell now, we are playing a completely different game to everyone else, we are playing teams competing in the game of football with their number 1 aim is to win the game, we are playing possession-ball (slightly different to football) with our number 1 aim to keep the ball and pass it to get our stats as high as they can.
Ask yourselves this. If Martin was given a scenario where the next 15 games we would win all 15 on the bounce but we would have 40% possession and 300 passes…
or win 3, draw 5 and lose 7 but have 80% possession and 800 passes each game…
I genuinely have no idea which one he would pick. And to me that is a frightening prospect that I am unable to give a firm answer on that. It shouldn’t be in question from our manager, but with Martin - it is. |  |
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| The Big Question on 02:47 - Jan 30 with 876 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| The Big Question on 23:22 - Jan 29 by max936 |
Its Bollox, pts on the board are what matters and a point every other game or 3 pts every 2/3/4 games ain't gonna impress anyone, he needs a massive improvement. [Post edited 30 Jan 2022 11:30]
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That’s what SHOULD matter but that’s not the case here. We appointed Martin because of his stats, not because of his results or points on the board. As far as he is concerned that’s the golden ticket, and he may well be right with that…. but it’s the golden ticket for him, not us.
MK Dons said exactly the same thing. The matches were about boosting stats to get the team noticed and get his name out there, that’s what it turned out to be. It clearly wasn’t about the project and the build as he abandoned it literal days after saying he was there for the long term, it was about creating a better opportunity for himself, which he took.
Fair play to him for being ambitious and career driven, but there comes a point where he has to realise people will soon start looking at what he is actually achieving at these clubs. Results wise. There is only so far you can go, living off pretty looking stats. If your teams aren’t even getting into the top half when they should be, it’s going to start leaving a massive question mark over the CV.
He needs to be smarter and needs to be clever. It does feel a bit like Joey Essex running the club at times, there doesn’t appear to be any deep thought behind this stuff other than the skin deep facade of it all.
With Brendan, with Roberto there was a deep understanding of football and this way of playing, they showed it week after week with clever tactical adjustments and clever team selections, which then showed in the performances and results.
There is a rather large feel of someone winging it here and I don’t say that lightly, I’m yet to hear a single deep analytical thought other than the stock standard “we dominated”, “the process”, “work in progress” stuff that has been trotted out for 3 seasons now.
We are now in February (or at least we will be when we play next) and we are going backwards.
26 games gone..
First 13 games: 17 points
Last 13 games: 15 points
I’m sure some will see these words as harsh, but I’m afraid that’s how I feel. | |
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| The Big Question on 10:16 - Jan 30 with 802 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| The Big Question on 22:20 - Jan 29 by Catullus |
Our forwards make a run and our midfielders often take all day about trying a pass. Indeed if it's Grimes he usually declines the attacking pass and turns backwards. It's getting annoying seeing Piroe making forward runs that are ignored or the pass is slow coming meaning he's gone offside.
As already noted, Piroe's drop in return coincides with no Pato but it's Martin's job to solve that. Our manager though seems short on ideas.
Here's an idea, rest Piroe Tuesday and try Oba and Joseph up front, fresh legs, a bit of pace and maybe effort and tell our midfield (which badly missed Downes) to go for the forward passes.
Our determination to keep possession is stifling our attack, making us slow and predictable. |
Why penalise Piroe when you have correctly deduced the problem lies behind him? Paterson had a cr@p spell from mid November to the Forest game (before he downed tools). Same with Wolf, he can’t function with the ball taking aeons to go from back to front .
Our midfield make up is the problem - it’s plain to see. I’d have kept Bidwell and brought in a midfield player who is direct - not long ball direct but with vision, a quick pass and the ability to run with the ball i.e. when the pass isn't on to run past opponents and then make the pass - to disrupt defensive lines with some unpredictability about his play).
We are as predictable as a Cooper side right now - we weren’t in the autumn so there’s still hope but we definitely are one good centre midfield player short to make this team transform the way we play. Corey and Matt aren’t fitting that model - we have to change . Ntcham could fulfil that role in front of Downes but is he up to it week in week out ? That why we should carefully target whatever funds we have on that specialist midfielder who has that tenacity and nous to get us going forward again. And of course a LWB |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| The Big Question on 10:36 - Jan 30 with 786 views | union_jack |
| The Big Question on 02:34 - Jan 30 by Dr_Parnassus |
I was talking about KPI’s with Jackrmee in September before he “rebranded” to another username.
I was making the point that Martin’s KPI’s seem wildly different to ours and the club need to introduce their own, they are the bosses of the whole club, Martin is just the boss of the players.
I did some research on his MK Dons stint and it seemed strikingly obvious that if he is able to say “we dominated” then that’s good enough for him and the performance or result won’t need explaining away or have the benefit of further scrutiny.
That suggests to me he means ‘dominate possession’, which of course is a mile away from “dominating the game”. I would suggest most clubs play us with a mindset to allow us possession so they can press and create traps in dangerous areas, sometimes that situation is akin to them having possession despite it being at our feet. That isn’t dominating the game.
You will hear that a lot in defeat or a draw “we dominated”.
That’s simply all he looks at, and I am getting concerned about his deeper game analysis and understanding, hence why we aren’t seeing wingers, hence why we aren’t going long when the opportunities are there, hence why half the team is out of position and hence why he isn’t learning when things present themselves that should obviously be learned from.
It’s all about stats and getting noticed. Possession and passing numbers; that is literally us in a nutshell now, we are playing a completely different game to everyone else, we are playing teams competing in the game of football with their number 1 aim is to win the game, we are playing possession-ball (slightly different to football) with our number 1 aim to keep the ball and pass it to get our stats as high as they can.
Ask yourselves this. If Martin was given a scenario where the next 15 games we would win all 15 on the bounce but we would have 40% possession and 300 passes…
or win 3, draw 5 and lose 7 but have 80% possession and 800 passes each game…
I genuinely have no idea which one he would pick. And to me that is a frightening prospect that I am unable to give a firm answer on that. It shouldn’t be in question from our manager, but with Martin - it is. |
Couldn’t agree more.
Oh, and the Joey Essex analogy  . Brilliant! | |
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| The Big Question on 10:39 - Jan 30 with 781 views | union_jack |
| The Big Question on 22:20 - Jan 29 by Catullus |
Our forwards make a run and our midfielders often take all day about trying a pass. Indeed if it's Grimes he usually declines the attacking pass and turns backwards. It's getting annoying seeing Piroe making forward runs that are ignored or the pass is slow coming meaning he's gone offside.
As already noted, Piroe's drop in return coincides with no Pato but it's Martin's job to solve that. Our manager though seems short on ideas.
Here's an idea, rest Piroe Tuesday and try Oba and Joseph up front, fresh legs, a bit of pace and maybe effort and tell our midfield (which badly missed Downes) to go for the forward passes.
Our determination to keep possession is stifling our attack, making us slow and predictable. |
Agree with that. Piroe just isn’t connecting with the midfield (or vice versa) at the moment and we know why.
Is the public opinion turning against Martin now? I’ve given him my support and will continue to do so but there are many chinks in his armour and I’m not as positive as I once was. Not by a long way actually. | |
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| The Big Question on 10:41 - Jan 30 with 777 views | onehunglow |
| The Big Question on 10:39 - Jan 30 by union_jack |
Agree with that. Piroe just isn’t connecting with the midfield (or vice versa) at the moment and we know why.
Is the public opinion turning against Martin now? I’ve given him my support and will continue to do so but there are many chinks in his armour and I’m not as positive as I once was. Not by a long way actually. |
Martin ruins players and he will Piroe.
Meanwhile ---passmaters!
dear God | |
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| The Big Question on 10:58 - Jan 30 with 763 views | grabsplatter |
| The Big Question on 22:20 - Jan 29 by Catullus |
Our forwards make a run and our midfielders often take all day about trying a pass. Indeed if it's Grimes he usually declines the attacking pass and turns backwards. It's getting annoying seeing Piroe making forward runs that are ignored or the pass is slow coming meaning he's gone offside.
As already noted, Piroe's drop in return coincides with no Pato but it's Martin's job to solve that. Our manager though seems short on ideas.
Here's an idea, rest Piroe Tuesday and try Oba and Joseph up front, fresh legs, a bit of pace and maybe effort and tell our midfield (which badly missed Downes) to go for the forward passes.
Our determination to keep possession is stifling our attack, making us slow and predictable. |
In the first half yesterday nobody was making a bl@@dy run. We were so static it was untrue.
Naughton was getting some stick at 1 point in the first half for turning & passing it backwards but to be fair to him there was literally nobody moving & showing for the ball.
I get what you're saying about Piroe, he looks like the confidence has drained out of him & he needs a goal badly.
If Martin does rest him & we don't win he'll be slaughtered on here. |  | | |
| The Big Question on 11:17 - Jan 30 with 747 views | Catullus |
| The Big Question on 10:16 - Jan 30 by Brynmill_Jack |
Why penalise Piroe when you have correctly deduced the problem lies behind him? Paterson had a cr@p spell from mid November to the Forest game (before he downed tools). Same with Wolf, he can’t function with the ball taking aeons to go from back to front .
Our midfield make up is the problem - it’s plain to see. I’d have kept Bidwell and brought in a midfield player who is direct - not long ball direct but with vision, a quick pass and the ability to run with the ball i.e. when the pass isn't on to run past opponents and then make the pass - to disrupt defensive lines with some unpredictability about his play).
We are as predictable as a Cooper side right now - we weren’t in the autumn so there’s still hope but we definitely are one good centre midfield player short to make this team transform the way we play. Corey and Matt aren’t fitting that model - we have to change . Ntcham could fulfil that role in front of Downes but is he up to it week in week out ? That why we should carefully target whatever funds we have on that specialist midfielder who has that tenacity and nous to get us going forward again. And of course a LWB |
I'm not penalising Piroe, I'm resting him. He's carried the attack and maybe we need fresh legs and Piroe needs a break?
Wolf hasn't had a chance to settle in properly, we should give him a chance considering he'd hardly played before coming here.
Our midfield make up is maybe our biggest problem, not just selection but strategy. Downes does what you suggest but we spend to long passing sideways and backwards which gives the oppo a chance to get into position, we definitely need more pace going forward, pace on the ball but passing more quickly too. Some of them seem to need 4-5 touches before they'll pass.
I said slow and predictable which then brings us to the word I didn't want to use, boring. Yes, we are there, Martin said it should be fun but he's strangled the fun out of it after some signs of improvement.
If we don't get the players we need before the window shuts (and I don't expect we will now) then Martin needs to make changes and play to the strengths of the squad we have got. maybe playing someone with pace up alongside Piroe would help. | |
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| The Big Question on 22:11 - Jan 30 with 654 views | AndyCole |
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Excellent thread UJ.
Accountability is key, esp right now. And you're right, Martin has his own PR machine KPIs - with blinkered laser focus. With no line of sight alignment with the Club.
A major Wunter weakness, so utterly dependant his reputation is on Martin's success.
This is where we need a proper fans' Trust to speak up and hold Martin and Winter to the right set of KPIs - aligned to the club's vision, strategy and operating model.
The bigger Big Question is - assuming the Trust do nothing, how do we proper fans make the right interventions before it's too late.
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Edit - Dr_P's posts on this thread need to be sent to all Swans news outlets, and the inboxes of all our Owners, and ofc Wunter and Martin, the players and the backroom staff..
[Post edited 30 Jan 2022 22:15]
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| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
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| The Big Question on 22:18 - Jan 30 with 645 views | STID2017 |
| The Big Question on 22:11 - Jan 30 by AndyCole |
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Excellent thread UJ.
Accountability is key, esp right now. And you're right, Martin has his own PR machine KPIs - with blinkered laser focus. With no line of sight alignment with the Club.
A major Wunter weakness, so utterly dependant his reputation is on Martin's success.
This is where we need a proper fans' Trust to speak up and hold Martin and Winter to the right set of KPIs - aligned to the club's vision, strategy and operating model.
The bigger Big Question is - assuming the Trust do nothing, how do we proper fans make the right interventions before it's too late.
.
Edit - Dr_P's posts on this thread need to be sent to all Swans news outlets, and the inboxes of all our Owners, and ofc Wunter and Martin, the players and the backroom staff..
[Post edited 30 Jan 2022 22:15]
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We the fans ?
Change your name that actually makes you sound like a Swans supporter, not a sado named after a PL player with no connection to Swans whatsoever.
Then you may have a base to begin the revolution
Even then all you ever do is criticise the club, so not sure what your motives are ? | |
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