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Scowen and Cameron 22:19 - Oct 28 with 3357 viewsHunterhoop

You just cannot play that as a midfield pair.

Too slow. Too immobile. Too bad on the ball.

The first 5 min set the tone and it got worse.

It’s not a reflection of them as people. Scowen runs around and I think Cameron cares. But one does not have the ability and the other no longer the legs. It’s a recipe for disaster.

Two holding midfielders and yet we were getting carved open down the middle with midfielders advancing on our two slow centres stuck between tracking runners or committing and rushing selling themselves. Continually free runners running into our back 4.

Two holding midfielders and yet we could not pass out. Back to Leistner. Back to Hall. Back to Kelly. Unable to take one touch, turn and play a forward pass. Only ever play the way they’re facing. Both of them.

Brentford has 6 players starting in our half pressing us from goal kicks because they knew Cameron and Scowen could not possible play through them, and they had no physical hold up man to worry about.

Two games running we’ve started with that 4-2-3-1 shape. Both times Scowen and Cameron as the two. Both times a poor performance. I’d include Blackburn too, but everyone else thinks they were good then, which I cannot fathom.

If we and Warburton want to play this style, which I believe he and we want, he cannot keep combining these two. Get Ball back in. Try Amos with him. We need another ball player and a more positionally astute holding midfielder.
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Scowen and Cameron on 22:22 - Oct 28 with 2354 viewsRed_Ranger

Exactly .
Invisible men.
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Scowen and Cameron on 22:26 - Oct 28 with 2289 viewsPetros

Totally agree. Mystifying selection. And Eze wide? Doesn't makes sense.
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Scowen and Cameron on 22:38 - Oct 28 with 2191 viewsqprd

Scowen and Cameron were very poor tonight.

Ideally, Scowen would play a roving role, trying to break up play/win the ball further up the pitch, while Cameron sits in front of the back 4. Scowen tried to do that today, but consistently over-committed, either (i) failing to win the ball and letting Brentford players skip past him onto an exposed and back-pedalling back 4 or (ii) fouling the f***k out of the opposition. And I genuinely dont know where Cameron was bc he was not protecting the back 4 at all. The combination could work against a slower, more physical squad, but against Brentfords tricky attacking players, it was a recipe for disaster, particularly with Scowen losing so many 50/50s.

Amos and Ball dont seem to be the answer to me, though.

Amos strikes me as being one gear too slow for this division, though he is incredibly adept on the ball. We need defensive minded CDM's if we're going to play attacking football with bombing fullbacks- I dont think we can afford to play Amos at the base of a midfield.

Ball is very positionally disciplined, and proficient at breaking up play. He's also much more mobile than Cameron, whose age was exposed today- but Ball is genuinely afraid of having the ball at his feet. He was the weak link that was exposed going forward against WBA, and its hard to play attacking football with a passenger in possession.
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Scowen and Cameron on 22:44 - Oct 28 with 2141 viewsbosh67

Scowen and Cameron on 22:38 - Oct 28 by qprd

Scowen and Cameron were very poor tonight.

Ideally, Scowen would play a roving role, trying to break up play/win the ball further up the pitch, while Cameron sits in front of the back 4. Scowen tried to do that today, but consistently over-committed, either (i) failing to win the ball and letting Brentford players skip past him onto an exposed and back-pedalling back 4 or (ii) fouling the f***k out of the opposition. And I genuinely dont know where Cameron was bc he was not protecting the back 4 at all. The combination could work against a slower, more physical squad, but against Brentfords tricky attacking players, it was a recipe for disaster, particularly with Scowen losing so many 50/50s.

Amos and Ball dont seem to be the answer to me, though.

Amos strikes me as being one gear too slow for this division, though he is incredibly adept on the ball. We need defensive minded CDM's if we're going to play attacking football with bombing fullbacks- I dont think we can afford to play Amos at the base of a midfield.

Ball is very positionally disciplined, and proficient at breaking up play. He's also much more mobile than Cameron, whose age was exposed today- but Ball is genuinely afraid of having the ball at his feet. He was the weak link that was exposed going forward against WBA, and its hard to play attacking football with a passenger in possession.


With Amos I think it is more about him being at full fitness for once and with minutes on the pitch. He is apparently the fastest player by some distance in the squad and we saw glimpses of that before he got injured. He is very quick when fit over 10-20 yards.

Never knowingly right.
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Scowen and Cameron on 22:50 - Oct 28 with 2102 viewsingeminate

Agree with all of this, would add that our centre backs need to learn how to defend as a unit. Anticipate, react, defend. The first goal sums up what is wrong back there. I like Leistner, Hall, Barbet individually. None of them are Zesh Rehman or Karl Ready, but they don’t gel, they don’t back each other up and it’s just not working.

If not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. PG Wodehouse
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:00 - Oct 28 with 2020 viewssmegma

I thought Ball should have replaced Scowen at half time. And as for Eze playing wide left ????
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:13 - Oct 28 with 1957 viewsLblock

Agree OP 1,000%

Here for a good time..... not a long time

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Scowen and Cameron on 23:19 - Oct 28 with 1923 viewsridethewave

Scowen and Cameron on 23:13 - Oct 28 by Lblock

Agree OP 1,000%


As others have said, why play our best player in the wrong position? Totally stupid. Eze needs to be in behind the striker not hanging out on the wing away from the action, unable to dictate play.
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:25 - Oct 28 with 1903 viewsWadR

Totally agree Hunter. So easy to play through them all night and no real clear understanding or communication between them as a partnership.

A lot of ire around me at the game directed towards Kelly/Leistner/Hall for going backwards and playing the ball between themselves but think Cameron and Scowen were the main culprits. Neither show for the ball effectively.

Amos and Ball in for Leeds. I would suggest a change back to the 5-3-2 shape but think that would be harsh on Bright who deserves to keep his place.

As for Eze on the left. Didn't hear anyone complain about him playing there after Hull or after Blackburn or after Stoke. Some of his best performances this season have come wide left. But he was starved of the ball and Manning wasn't such an attacking threat tonight (not meant as a criticism) so he wasn't afforded as much space when he did get on the ball.
[Post edited 28 Oct 2019 23:31]
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:37 - Oct 28 with 1855 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Scowen and Cameron on 23:25 - Oct 28 by WadR

Totally agree Hunter. So easy to play through them all night and no real clear understanding or communication between them as a partnership.

A lot of ire around me at the game directed towards Kelly/Leistner/Hall for going backwards and playing the ball between themselves but think Cameron and Scowen were the main culprits. Neither show for the ball effectively.

Amos and Ball in for Leeds. I would suggest a change back to the 5-3-2 shape but think that would be harsh on Bright who deserves to keep his place.

As for Eze on the left. Didn't hear anyone complain about him playing there after Hull or after Blackburn or after Stoke. Some of his best performances this season have come wide left. But he was starved of the ball and Manning wasn't such an attacking threat tonight (not meant as a criticism) so he wasn't afforded as much space when he did get on the ball.
[Post edited 28 Oct 2019 23:31]


I think that Eze on the left is fine in a 532 with Manning bombing on as Eze then cuts in, but not wide on the left or right with a 4231, 442 or the 42211 we played today as the wide midfielders then have to stay wide to give us width and that isolates him.

I'd go back to the 4231 (with attacking full-backs) immediately with the central attacking midfielder much deeper to give us control in the centre-mid. We've been swamped there the last two games.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:38 - Oct 28 with 1847 viewsNorthLondonR

I will cause some controversy (best ever Prince track however) and say Scowen just isn't a great footballer. Always caught out of position and I agree him and Geoff cannot play together. No movement in that midfield whatsoever. So so static and that was our problem. I would agree with an earlier poster that manning in there makes sense. Always searching for the ball, but it was an off-night tonight plain and simple. Just didnt get going and had no shape whatsoever. We'll beat Lids however
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:46 - Oct 28 with 1798 viewsridethewave

Scowen and Cameron on 23:37 - Oct 28 by BrianMcCarthy

I think that Eze on the left is fine in a 532 with Manning bombing on as Eze then cuts in, but not wide on the left or right with a 4231, 442 or the 42211 we played today as the wide midfielders then have to stay wide to give us width and that isolates him.

I'd go back to the 4231 (with attacking full-backs) immediately with the central attacking midfielder much deeper to give us control in the centre-mid. We've been swamped there the last two games.


Have to disagree Brian. When it comes to your best player, you play him in his best position, and anywhere on the side isn’t it for Eze. He should be in behind the striker dictating the game.
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:51 - Oct 28 with 1776 viewsdannyblue

My feeling is our best performances, results and games where we’ve dominated possession have come with 5122. Ball in front of a back three and chair and eze central. I think mw stumbled on to something good there. But has gone back to his preferred 4231. But our weaker performances have come when eze and chair are wider and we rely on Cameron and scowen deep. I can’t be brothered to go back and check if my impression is totally right or just mainly right though.
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Scowen and Cameron on 23:52 - Oct 28 with 1767 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Scowen and Cameron on 23:46 - Oct 28 by ridethewave

Have to disagree Brian. When it comes to your best player, you play him in his best position, and anywhere on the side isn’t it for Eze. He should be in behind the striker dictating the game.


That would be my preference too, ridethewave. Just pointing out that left in a 532 still gets him on the ball more than left in a 4231 or 442.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Scowen and Cameron on 01:07 - Oct 29 with 1660 viewsbob566

I don't get scowen. Over aggressive. That tackle where he won the ball but then decided to two foot through their player. That plants a seed. He's a liability. Penno decision was harsh but the ref probably thinking about that former tackle. Cameron was anonymous too. Listener is a worry too. What has an Eire u21 captain done that he's not even on the bench.
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Scowen and Cameron on 01:16 - Oct 29 with 1655 viewssmegma

Scowen and Cameron on 23:38 - Oct 28 by NorthLondonR

I will cause some controversy (best ever Prince track however) and say Scowen just isn't a great footballer. Always caught out of position and I agree him and Geoff cannot play together. No movement in that midfield whatsoever. So so static and that was our problem. I would agree with an earlier poster that manning in there makes sense. Always searching for the ball, but it was an off-night tonight plain and simple. Just didnt get going and had no shape whatsoever. We'll beat Lids however


I don't think that's controversial at all. Scowen isn't the same player he was two seasons ago.
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Scowen and Cameron on 01:53 - Oct 29 with 1625 viewssuperhoopdownunder

When we've played 4 at the back recently we have lost most if not all of our attacking threat.
We are even less of a threat when the 2 central midfielders can't run/get/keep the ball or pass it well (Cameron and Scowen)
We need to play to our strengths which is 2 wing backs and play our best players like Eze in the middle of the park not out wide.

I understand why we have done it when we play better teams - but it just does not work and we will concede a couple of soft goals and be on the back foot - unable to get the 3 goals (at least) required to win the game

I hope we can sort the goalkeeper and central defence out as well as the right players in the middle of the park.

For the central defence we will need to buy in January and maybe offload
Goalkeeper not sure - both goalkeepers concern me

Midfield I think we have the players - just need to structure the team for success.

Anyway we generally play better away - here's hoping

U R's
.
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Scowen and Cameron on 07:36 - Oct 29 with 1375 viewsrsonist

Plenty of valid points here but I do feel we could tone it down a notch just a little. We've done well to get this far in so short a time from a blank canvas as it is and the kind of players we're talking about requiring don't tend to grow on free transfer trees nice and ripe just when we need them.

Even then if we had Barbet, Hugill, Amos available and fit it could have been miles closer.
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Scowen and Cameron on 07:40 - Oct 29 with 1363 viewsrsonist

Amos being more of a hypothesis at the moment but still. Hugill and Barbet though we were clearly crying out for. (I don't think anyone will be getting on the latter's back for a good few weeks now).
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Scowen and Cameron on 09:13 - Oct 29 with 1178 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

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Scowen and Cameron on 09:31 - Oct 29 with 1124 viewsBuckR

Scowen and Cameron on 09:13 - Oct 29 by BazzaInTheLoft



Knob
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Scowen and Cameron on 09:36 - Oct 29 with 1108 viewsCFW

Last night was very disappointing but for me the result against Reading was worse. Forget the local derby bit for a moment and look at the game overall. Against Reading we did not play well collectively as a team but we led the match twice and the second time with less than a quarter of an hour to go. We gave away two very soft goals (again) and went from not playing well but getting the three points to dropping two points late in the game.

Our midfield that night did not set the world alight.

As people on here have already said the team performance last night was not great and Kelly making some important saves kept us in the match. I totally agree that the midfield of Scowen and Cameron just does not work and Scowen to me offers very little and has gone backwards in my opinion. Cameron has to take his share of the blame as well but thought he looked slightly better.

So we went 0-1 down but started the second half well and pressed hard to get back on level terms. This we did with a well taken header from Hall. Once we scored I really thought we would go on and win the game - we had our best spell of the game and looked like finally we were up for it. Then again we gave away a needless penalty. He did make a meal of it and you could argue it was harsh or even very harsh but an experienced player like Scowen should know better - it is not his first time. Their keeper got lucky as well when he dropped a cross and it went to one of their players - could easily have gone to ours for a tap in. The third goal was scored with seconds to go and if we were level at that point they would not have been given the room they had to score.

I was thinking last night (careful) and I made a comment on an older post about the amount of goals we concede from the left hand side and that perhaps we should give Manning a more midfield role and bring in Wallace at left back. I just noticed that a new post has been suggesting the same thing - he is quick, likes a tackle, good passer of the ball etc. Eze needs to be more central to hurt teams and not left out wide - he looked lost to me in the first half.

It is not all bad and we really do need time to get things right and lets not forget this is a young team. It has been said many times before this is a tough league and the last two games have proved that point and Leeds away is not going to be any easier.
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Scowen and Cameron on 09:51 - Oct 29 with 1072 viewsdaveB

I don't really understand why Cameron isn't in a back 3, that would have solved a lot of our problems last night and allowed Manning to play further forward
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Scowen and Cameron on 09:55 - Oct 29 with 1060 viewsTHEBUSH

Scowen and Cameron on 09:51 - Oct 29 by daveB

I don't really understand why Cameron isn't in a back 3, that would have solved a lot of our problems last night and allowed Manning to play further forward


I agree with this, considering our defensive frailties, I'd play a back three.
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Scowen and Cameron on 10:01 - Oct 29 with 1049 viewsterryb

I'm another that doesn't think we can play those two together.

However, unlike most of you, I thought Scowen was a fair bit better than Cameron yesterday. And last Tuesday!

I lost count of the number of times Cameron & Leistner gave the ball away with their poor passing & the number of "hollywood" balls they attempted that didn't reach their target!

I have no idea who we should play in this role, or whether we need two holding players, but from what I've seen our best partnerships have been Cameron/ Amos (at Stoke) & Ball/Scowen.
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