| QPR Finances 16:59 - Jul 2 with 10524 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Still a bit of a way to go but not as bad as some. Next year's will be interesting bearing in mind this is a year old:
[Post edited 2 Jul 2020 17:02]
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| QPR Finances on 09:54 - Jul 3 with 2676 views | Toast_R |
What's going on there with Villa?
How are they getting away with that? |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 10:03 - Jul 3 with 2663 views | robith |
| QPR Finances on 07:00 - Jul 3 by BrianMcCarthy |
Absolutely.
In a week when one club have gone into administration and in a season when others are hovering, these are exceptional figures for our club.
I don't want to come across as a fanboy so I hope people will believe me when I say I would call them to task if they were lazy, incompetent or both, but Hoos, Ferdinand, Ramsey (and staff) and Warburton are doing keeping us afloat while FFP tries to kill us is incredible.
Remember, next year we will have some leeway as old losses come off our books. |
Can be tough to think of on the back of 3 insipid performances, but take the context of we weren't a small club coming up, we were a small club who'd gotten too big for their boots, kept ourselves in the championship while undergoing a complete hard reset of the club and those figures, and our survival are nothing short of astonishing really.
I have no doubt in my mind without Ferdinand and Hoos we'd be Bolton |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 10:11 - Jul 3 with 2642 views | rsonist |
| QPR Finances on 10:03 - Jul 3 by robith |
Can be tough to think of on the back of 3 insipid performances, but take the context of we weren't a small club coming up, we were a small club who'd gotten too big for their boots, kept ourselves in the championship while undergoing a complete hard reset of the club and those figures, and our survival are nothing short of astonishing really.
I have no doubt in my mind without Ferdinand and Hoos we'd be Bolton |
Agreed. Unfortunately it remains the case that if God forbid the owners suddenly went the way of Eddie Davies we still would be Bolton. |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 10:19 - Jul 3 with 2618 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 09:36 - Jul 3 by francisbowles |
Lee Hoos and the rest of the management deserve great praise for driving the costs to a much better level.
They have continued their good work since but we should remember that income is almost certain to be severely reduced as this was the last season that we received a parachute payment. (not to mention the increased costs and lost income due to the corona virus).
Brian, I think you will agree, they will need to continue this approach for the foreseeable future until others are forced to take a similar approach, either through circumstances as the losses mount up or enforcement by the footballing authorities. At some time we may have a more level playing field. |
I agree 100%, fb.
Plus, it's the best thing to do for ourselves. |  |
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| QPR Finances on 12:53 - Jul 3 with 2481 views | derbyhoop |
Compared with the figures quoted, which are a year old, we will have lost a fair bit of revenue and have been cutting wages as well., so we might not be that badly off.
The sale of Freeman, Furlong and Luongo would , presumably, have come after those figures were published. And we only, allegedly, spent 50K on transfers in.
I suspect 2 of the 3 above were big earners, and we've also lost Hall and Pugh and the BFG won't be coming back.
When you realise how far some of the other teams have to go to get their finances straight, we're in a good position. Assuming we sell Eze (and BOS?) for decent money; and we invest it well then we ought not to be in any serious trouble. |  |
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Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| QPR Finances on 13:23 - Jul 3 with 2414 views | isawqpratwcity |
| QPR Finances on 09:36 - Jul 3 by francisbowles |
Lee Hoos and the rest of the management deserve great praise for driving the costs to a much better level.
They have continued their good work since but we should remember that income is almost certain to be severely reduced as this was the last season that we received a parachute payment. (not to mention the increased costs and lost income due to the corona virus).
Brian, I think you will agree, they will need to continue this approach for the foreseeable future until others are forced to take a similar approach, either through circumstances as the losses mount up or enforcement by the footballing authorities. At some time we may have a more level playing field. |
That's an excellent point, that those figures include the last parachute payment of, what, £10 million?
Bloody hell, this year's finances are going to be tough. |  |
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| QPR Finances on 13:32 - Jul 3 with 2397 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 13:23 - Jul 3 by isawqpratwcity |
That's an excellent point, that those figures include the last parachute payment of, what, £10 million?
Bloody hell, this year's finances are going to be tough. |
Yes, but we will be allowed an FFP loss equivelent to that of three years before which would have been significant.
That's providing the owners will fund a further loss. | |
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| QPR Finances on 14:10 - Jul 3 with 2330 views | isawqpratwcity |
| QPR Finances on 13:32 - Jul 3 by BrianMcCarthy |
Yes, but we will be allowed an FFP loss equivelent to that of three years before which would have been significant.
That's providing the owners will fund a further loss. |
Ok, I missed that bit.
I'm comfortable that the owners are committed. | |
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| QPR Finances on 14:36 - Jul 3 with 2294 views | TheChef |
| QPR Finances on 21:20 - Jul 2 by Roller |
I've spent a bit of time digging into Reading's accounts to see how they had managed not to breach FFP after seeing a headline declaring that “Reading announce £40.6m loss as players wages soar”. In each of their last three sets of published accounts, Reading had benefited enormously from significant, one-off transactions. In 2016/17 loans of over £9million were written off. I’d hazard a guess that the loans were from Sir John Madejski and he agreed to waive repayment of them as part of the sale of the club to Dai Yongge and his sister Dai Xiu Li. The following season was boosted by the profit of around £6.5million on the highly publicised sale of the Madejski Stadium to Renhe Sports Management Company (owned by Dai Yongge). Last season Reading sold their training ground to the same company for any even greater profit of around £8million despite their new training facility at Bearwood Park not being ready. Those transactions have enabled Reading to dress up their profit and loss to the tune of almost £24million over the last three seasons; it is very hard to envisage what else they sell to avoid facing up to their underlying problem. |
According to a Reading work mate:
"Reading have issued 23.2million shares at 52.35pence per share this is said to have put £12million into the club. This is how we are managing this, we have also culling the squads of all age groups which I think this will reduce the expenditure going forward. Some of our better players are being link to Prem/top championship clubs so I guess once the season finishes more players will go, judging by the other evening it won’t make much difference on the pitch"
Given their current form I'm curious which players might be linked with moves to bigger clubs... |  |
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| QPR Finances on 14:39 - Jul 3 with 2289 views | francisbowles |
| QPR Finances on 13:32 - Jul 3 by BrianMcCarthy |
Yes, but we will be allowed an FFP loss equivelent to that of three years before which would have been significant.
That's providing the owners will fund a further loss. |
Not sure I quite follow that, Brian.
This is how I understand it.
These figures include a parachute payment of, I believe, £17 million. The following season (this season) we will have only a solidarity payment of, I think, around £5 million. So that is £12 million less revenue.
The FFP target is a three year rolling period, so for 2019/20 the 2016/17 loss will be taken out of the equation and this season with a £12 million drop in income will be included but the FFP target will remain constant.
On the figures quoted, income exceeds wages by £10.6 million but if you were to hypothetically remove the £12 million you can see we are already £1 .4 million short before any other costs are taken into consideration.
So hopefully with the transfer income and further savings made on wages we can make up the difference for 2019/20. Further reductions in salaries and further transfer fees received will be needed to alleviate the loss of the parachute payment from our income as the seasons 2017/18 and 2018/19 are removed from our rolling three year FFP targets.
Hopefully, I have understood that correctly but if I have made an error, please feel free to comment. |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 14:51 - Jul 3 with 2270 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 14:39 - Jul 3 by francisbowles |
Not sure I quite follow that, Brian.
This is how I understand it.
These figures include a parachute payment of, I believe, £17 million. The following season (this season) we will have only a solidarity payment of, I think, around £5 million. So that is £12 million less revenue.
The FFP target is a three year rolling period, so for 2019/20 the 2016/17 loss will be taken out of the equation and this season with a £12 million drop in income will be included but the FFP target will remain constant.
On the figures quoted, income exceeds wages by £10.6 million but if you were to hypothetically remove the £12 million you can see we are already £1 .4 million short before any other costs are taken into consideration.
So hopefully with the transfer income and further savings made on wages we can make up the difference for 2019/20. Further reductions in salaries and further transfer fees received will be needed to alleviate the loss of the parachute payment from our income as the seasons 2017/18 and 2018/19 are removed from our rolling three year FFP targets.
Hopefully, I have understood that correctly but if I have made an error, please feel free to comment. |
You're right. Good analysis. The reduction in parachute money is a challenge and will affect our Profit & Loss column.
However, the FFP situation is different and entirely separate . I should have been clearer on that.
My point is that the 2018/2019 FFP losses were £22.5m. They come off the books for next season. We are allowed £39m over a rolling 3-yr period, so we can in theory lose £22.5m under FFP rules next season without sanction.
While I don't expect the owners to bankroll such a huge loss for next season (purely because with the length of contracts it would also mean a knock-on loss in the following seasons) it does give us headroom at last on the FFP front. | |
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| QPR Finances on 19:15 - Jul 3 with 2168 views | francisbowles |
| QPR Finances on 14:51 - Jul 3 by BrianMcCarthy |
You're right. Good analysis. The reduction in parachute money is a challenge and will affect our Profit & Loss column.
However, the FFP situation is different and entirely separate . I should have been clearer on that.
My point is that the 2018/2019 FFP losses were £22.5m. They come off the books for next season. We are allowed £39m over a rolling 3-yr period, so we can in theory lose £22.5m under FFP rules next season without sanction.
While I don't expect the owners to bankroll such a huge loss for next season (purely because with the length of contracts it would also mean a knock-on loss in the following seasons) it does give us headroom at last on the FFP front. |
I see what you were getting at now Brian but as the results are always a year behind isn't it the 2017-18 figure that will come off the three year accumulative. However, I think the figure that you quote may be the one for that season and not 2018/19.
I have searched but cannot find year on year FFP losses, just lot's of financial info which doesn't seem to give the FFP bottom line.
The whole financial results media reporting is confusing as some refer to a year whilst others talk about a season. | | | |
| QPR Finances on 19:55 - Jul 3 with 2132 views | Roller |
| QPR Finances on 19:15 - Jul 3 by francisbowles |
I see what you were getting at now Brian but as the results are always a year behind isn't it the 2017-18 figure that will come off the three year accumulative. However, I think the figure that you quote may be the one for that season and not 2018/19.
I have searched but cannot find year on year FFP losses, just lot's of financial info which doesn't seem to give the FFP bottom line.
The whole financial results media reporting is confusing as some refer to a year whilst others talk about a season. |
FB, see the table just over half way down. The accounting wizardry I referred to in the article means that we lost as good as £1m less (for FFP purposes) than I show in the table.
 Accounting for success — Column 28th Feb 2020 14:20With the club’s latest set of accounts mixing an improved picture with still stark realities of the club’s situation, our resident grown up Simon Dorset assesses where we are with FFP.  10
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| QPR Finances on 10:10 - Jul 4 with 1940 views | francisbowles |
| QPR Finances on 19:55 - Jul 3 by Roller |
FB, see the table just over half way down. The accounting wizardry I referred to in the article means that we lost as good as £1m less (for FFP purposes) than I show in the table.
Accounting for success — Column 28th Feb 2020 14:20With the club’s latest set of accounts mixing an improved picture with still stark realities of the club’s situation, our resident grown up Simon Dorset assesses where we are with FFP. 10
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Thank Roller
Does that mean we have an allowable FFP loss of around £12 .4 million when the accounts are published next year, for this 2019/20 season? | | | |
| QPR Finances on 10:36 - Jul 4 with 1914 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 19:15 - Jul 3 by francisbowles |
I see what you were getting at now Brian but as the results are always a year behind isn't it the 2017-18 figure that will come off the three year accumulative. However, I think the figure that you quote may be the one for that season and not 2018/19.
I have searched but cannot find year on year FFP losses, just lot's of financial info which doesn't seem to give the FFP bottom line.
The whole financial results media reporting is confusing as some refer to a year whilst others talk about a season. |
You might well be right, FB. I found it very confusing yesterday. We can see now why I dropped out of my Accountancy A Level after a few short weeks!
I'll have another look through Roller's fine article later. | |
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| QPR Finances on 11:18 - Jul 4 with 1870 views | MedwayR |
| QPR Finances on 18:44 - Jul 2 by MelakaRanger |
So the average wage of a QPR player was over half a million pounds per year. Utter madness!
There is no way on earth any footballer in the Premiership or Championship is worth half a million a year - yet some even earn a couple of million a month!
In the 'real world' a company that 'earns' say £23 million and pays out £33 million in wages , let alone all the other expenses , would go bust! So how can Birmingham be solvent?
The riches of Sky for the past 20 years or so have gone down the toilet of obsence wages, for in general , players with average ability at best.
If for some weird reason Sky decided to televise business at various branches of Greggs The Bakers and paid Greggs £100 million for the privilege, theres no way Greggs would then allow the staff to be paid extortionate wages and to suck up all or even more than all of the TV money. But thats what Football clubs have done.
A club should only be allowed to spend what it earns, plus maybe a sum of up to 10% of income as "allowed" borrowing/investment.
Neither you nor I can live beyond our means, if we do, we go bust. The same should apply to Football clubs. Maybe that will mean clubs like QPR might never get to the Premiership. So be it. In life we would all aspire to have/do "things" but we have what we can afford. I would love a Tesla Model X. Its far beyond my means and I'll never get one. C'est la vie! But good for you if you earn enough to have one.
We need a hard reset. Football and in particular players wages need a sever reality check |
"So the average wage of a QPR player was over half a million pounds per year. Utter madness!"
Yet they still refused to take a wage cut during the coronavirus global pandemic. Staff were furloughed, ST holders gave up their refunds. The best the players could do was a wage deferral. Then the begging bowl got pushed in the fans direction for the community trust.
I know the wage bill will be lower now but the principal remains the same. Personally, I feel unable to support the players at the moment if they can't even support the club through this period. Football is sick and needs a massive reset. |  |
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| QPR Finances on 11:59 - Jul 4 with 1840 views | Roller |
| QPR Finances on 10:10 - Jul 4 by francisbowles |
Thank Roller
Does that mean we have an allowable FFP loss of around £12 .4 million when the accounts are published next year, for this 2019/20 season? |
The easiest way of calculating how much we can lose and remain within FFP is to add up the loss made in the previous two seasons and take that off the £39 million allowed.
17/18 - Loss £22.5, Est Excluded £4 = £18.5
18/19 - Loss £10.3 Est Excluded £4 = £6.3
£39 - £18.5 - £6.3 = £14.2
Note that figures is after removing the estimated excluded cost, so £18.2 in the accounts.
I'd be very surprised if we lose half as much as that. Lee Hoos is doing a tremendous job with our finances.
This figure is of course only for guidance as to where we sit as there will not be any FFP assessments for this year's accounts due to a temporary relaxation of the rules. As Brian said, the following season we have a shed load of costs rolling out of our equation. I'll need to find something else to talk about then....
Alternatively, if you have the table from that article to hand, just add the current headroom to the loss rolling out of the equation. £11.6m + £6.4m = £18.2m [Post edited 5 Jul 2020 6:31]
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| QPR Finances on 12:08 - Jul 4 with 1821 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 11:59 - Jul 4 by Roller |
The easiest way of calculating how much we can lose and remain within FFP is to add up the loss made in the previous two seasons and take that off the £39 million allowed.
17/18 - Loss £22.5, Est Excluded £4 = £18.5
18/19 - Loss £10.3 Est Excluded £4 = £6.3
£39 - £18.5 - £6.3 = £14.2
Note that figures is after removing the estimated excluded cost, so £18.2 in the accounts.
I'd be very surprised if we lose half as much as that. Lee Hoos is doing a tremendous job with our finances.
This figure is of course only for guidance as to where we sit as there will not be any FFP assessments for this year's accounts due to a temporary relaxation of the rules. As Brian said, the following season we have a shed load of costs rolling out of our equation. I'll need to find something else to talk about then....
Alternatively, if you have the table from that article to hand, just add the current headroom to the loss rolling out of the equation. £11.6m + £6.4m = £18.2m [Post edited 5 Jul 2020 6:31]
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Perfect. Thanks Roller. | |
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| QPR Finances on 12:30 - Jul 4 with 1787 views | LongsufferingR |
| QPR Finances on 21:20 - Jul 2 by Roller |
I've spent a bit of time digging into Reading's accounts to see how they had managed not to breach FFP after seeing a headline declaring that “Reading announce £40.6m loss as players wages soar”. In each of their last three sets of published accounts, Reading had benefited enormously from significant, one-off transactions. In 2016/17 loans of over £9million were written off. I’d hazard a guess that the loans were from Sir John Madejski and he agreed to waive repayment of them as part of the sale of the club to Dai Yongge and his sister Dai Xiu Li. The following season was boosted by the profit of around £6.5million on the highly publicised sale of the Madejski Stadium to Renhe Sports Management Company (owned by Dai Yongge). Last season Reading sold their training ground to the same company for any even greater profit of around £8million despite their new training facility at Bearwood Park not being ready. Those transactions have enabled Reading to dress up their profit and loss to the tune of almost £24million over the last three seasons; it is very hard to envisage what else they sell to avoid facing up to their underlying problem. |
There's no way the Reading owner is a wrong'un. After all, only the good Dai Yongge. |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 14:47 - Jul 4 with 1708 views | Match82 |
| QPR Finances on 11:18 - Jul 4 by MedwayR |
"So the average wage of a QPR player was over half a million pounds per year. Utter madness!"
Yet they still refused to take a wage cut during the coronavirus global pandemic. Staff were furloughed, ST holders gave up their refunds. The best the players could do was a wage deferral. Then the begging bowl got pushed in the fans direction for the community trust.
I know the wage bill will be lower now but the principal remains the same. Personally, I feel unable to support the players at the moment if they can't even support the club through this period. Football is sick and needs a massive reset. |
Might be misremembering this, but isn't it something to do with the PFA trying to negotiate on behalf of all members, rather than a decision the qpr players specifically are making? |  | | |
| QPR Finances on 14:53 - Jul 4 with 1696 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| QPR Finances on 14:47 - Jul 4 by Match82 |
Might be misremembering this, but isn't it something to do with the PFA trying to negotiate on behalf of all members, rather than a decision the qpr players specifically are making? |
Yes. | |
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| QPR Finances on 15:26 - Jul 4 with 1643 views | ManinBlack |
| QPR Finances on 14:36 - Jul 3 by TheChef |
According to a Reading work mate:
"Reading have issued 23.2million shares at 52.35pence per share this is said to have put £12million into the club. This is how we are managing this, we have also culling the squads of all age groups which I think this will reduce the expenditure going forward. Some of our better players are being link to Prem/top championship clubs so I guess once the season finishes more players will go, judging by the other evening it won’t make much difference on the pitch"
Given their current form I'm curious which players might be linked with moves to bigger clubs... |
Perhaps Meite who scored twice in a minute against Luton and then completed a first half hat trick [Post edited 4 Jul 2020 15:42]
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| QPR Finances on 16:38 - Jul 4 with 1567 views | MedwayR |
| QPR Finances on 14:47 - Jul 4 by Match82 |
Might be misremembering this, but isn't it something to do with the PFA trying to negotiate on behalf of all members, rather than a decision the qpr players specifically are making? |
The PFA were advising but that’s no excuse, plenty of others took a temporary pay cut despite the PFA failing to negotiate an agreement. Our players didn’t. | |
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| QPR Finances on 10:02 - Jul 5 with 1424 views | Esox_Lucius |
Whilst reading through the report on Reading FC earlier in the article I noticed that Dai Yongge is an anagram of Tony Fernandes. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| QPR Finances on 13:18 - Jul 31 with 1235 views | BazzeR |
With the FFP rules for season 2019/20 being suspended will that enable the accounts for season 2017/18 to automatically drop off the Three year rolling plan ? | | | |
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