| Bolton to be liquidated this week 11:13 - Aug 26 with 16302 views | RANGERS4EVER |
Unless they find a buyer by 5pm tomorrow. Got to feel sorry for the fans. It's going to be an awful 30 hours for them. Let's hope Ken Anderson stops being an absolute w*nker. |  |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 08:55 - Aug 27 with 2579 views | stevec |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 08:35 - Aug 27 by Antti_Heinola |
can't agree steve.
All clubs need to manage themselves properly. You can't blame players for taking wages that are offered. And while the EFL has its share of blame, this is almost all down to poor club stewardship - something we all know about.
You also can't have a system where clubs are given a license to gamble knowing if they get in dire straits some hand-out fund will bail them out - that's a nonsense.
Feel awful for both these clubs. Not sure what the answer is, but for all the awful things about FFP, one good thing is that a lot of clubs are sticking to it and managing their money accordingly. |
Agree with a lot of that, certainly in the normal world, but football is not normal.
In the normal world wages are decided purely on what the company or government body can afford to pay. Sure there are charlatans out there running some businesses and everybody may like to be paid a little more, but generally speaking it works.
Football a whole different issue. Players hold all the power.
The consequence is an industry where the percentage of wages paid to turnover is beyond sanity.
Agree, the licence to gamble aspect does provide a challenge. Rather than FFP the sensible approach should be based on what TF actually did, that is, if the club makes a loss then that owner has to fund the loss. That actually is the only fit and proper test that needs to be carried out, ascertain the level of loss an owner can carry BEFORE the problem becomes so acute and make sure those funds are set aside.
In the end Bolton are where they are not because the owners took excessive money out of the club, the players did. |  | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 09:31 - Aug 27 with 2518 views | runningman75 |
Looking at last seasons figures the average wages at Bolton seemed to be around £6208 a week versus average fans pay in the area of less than £500 a week. Saw the R's were paying on average £7971 a week. Villa were paying more than 3 times that with Derby more than 2 times that. So much for financial fair play and shows the inequalities in the championship. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 09:38 - Aug 27 with 2494 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 08:11 - Aug 27 by stevec |
There is a way to sort this out, the Premier League should place a levy of somewhere between 5 and 10% on the players wages.
Keep that aside to assist EFL sides who fall into serious financial problems.
Quite simply these issues are the fault of overpaid players. |
Hate to break it to you Steve, but you are almost advocating Labour Party policy!
https://labour.org.uk/press/labour-pledges-more-funding-to-grassroots-football/
[Post edited 27 Aug 2019 9:44]
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 09:48 - Aug 27 with 2473 views | CFW |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 08:55 - Aug 27 by stevec |
Agree with a lot of that, certainly in the normal world, but football is not normal.
In the normal world wages are decided purely on what the company or government body can afford to pay. Sure there are charlatans out there running some businesses and everybody may like to be paid a little more, but generally speaking it works.
Football a whole different issue. Players hold all the power.
The consequence is an industry where the percentage of wages paid to turnover is beyond sanity.
Agree, the licence to gamble aspect does provide a challenge. Rather than FFP the sensible approach should be based on what TF actually did, that is, if the club makes a loss then that owner has to fund the loss. That actually is the only fit and proper test that needs to be carried out, ascertain the level of loss an owner can carry BEFORE the problem becomes so acute and make sure those funds are set aside.
In the end Bolton are where they are not because the owners took excessive money out of the club, the players did. |
In the normal world wages are decided purely on what the company or government body can afford to pay. Sure there are charlatans out there running some businesses and everybody may like to be paid a little more, but generally speaking it works.
Why should that not apply to football? Sorry I just do not get it. Business is the NORMAL world - a well run business (club) should have a wage structure just like any other well run operation. If a potential employee wants more than a company can afford then it is up to the owner/manager of that business to decide if they feel that person is worth paying extra for - with the risk of upsetting other members of staff and the financial risk that decision will bring to the business.
Football a whole different issue. Players hold all the power.
No they do not - unfortunately the clubs have made it a problem for themselves. | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 10:02 - Aug 27 with 2444 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 09:48 - Aug 27 by CFW |
In the normal world wages are decided purely on what the company or government body can afford to pay. Sure there are charlatans out there running some businesses and everybody may like to be paid a little more, but generally speaking it works.
Why should that not apply to football? Sorry I just do not get it. Business is the NORMAL world - a well run business (club) should have a wage structure just like any other well run operation. If a potential employee wants more than a company can afford then it is up to the owner/manager of that business to decide if they feel that person is worth paying extra for - with the risk of upsetting other members of staff and the financial risk that decision will bring to the business.
Football a whole different issue. Players hold all the power.
No they do not - unfortunately the clubs have made it a problem for themselves. |
Agree, CFW. Players only hold the power because clubs allow them to do so, under pressure it must be said, from fans. (not blaming fans!).
Clubs are desperate for success, the PL is desperate to be the 'best league in the world' so wages sky rocket. That is not the players' fault. Clubs have to say no sometimes. If more clubs did that, wages would start to become more reasonable. |  |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 10:02 - Aug 27 with 2442 views | Clive_Anderson |
I wonder if the league can separate the football club and the business somehow.
The owner owns the business and gains control of the club as well, but when they go bust they lose the business, but the "club" goes to be administered by the league which can ultimately be given to a supporters trust to begin again, but in the same league. | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 11:50 - Aug 27 with 2328 views | ridethewave |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 10:02 - Aug 27 by Clive_Anderson |
I wonder if the league can separate the football club and the business somehow.
The owner owns the business and gains control of the club as well, but when they go bust they lose the business, but the "club" goes to be administered by the league which can ultimately be given to a supporters trust to begin again, but in the same league. |
The EFL have no ability to re-wright the bankruptcy/administration laws. Football clubs are businesses and fall therefore under the same laws as others.
The only solution would be a top-down structural change of the entire football league, which just isn't going to happen. The US system has this very well run in comparison, but that'll never happen here. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:54 - Aug 27 with 2318 views | stevec |
ARGHHH!!!
Almost. Principle applied to grass roots which is fair enough, but doesn't cover the issue of the Bolton's and Bury's.
What's your take on employees, in this case footballers, negotiating pay rises irrespective of the damage it might cause to the structure of the game. Socialism at it's finest or capitalism at it's worst?
Like you're new avatar, who are those Argentinian revolutionaries? | | | |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 11:55 - Aug 27 with 2318 views | CiderwithRsie |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 10:02 - Aug 27 by Antti_Heinola |
Agree, CFW. Players only hold the power because clubs allow them to do so, under pressure it must be said, from fans. (not blaming fans!).
Clubs are desperate for success, the PL is desperate to be the 'best league in the world' so wages sky rocket. That is not the players' fault. Clubs have to say no sometimes. If more clubs did that, wages would start to become more reasonable. |
I get your points, but:
1. The importance of the club to the local community is more than just the business or even the football. Be honest, can anyone here name a single fact about Bury other than it's got a football club? It's symbolic of the place having an identity at all, it's the town's flag, its national anthem, its accent.
2. The point of football authorities is to recognise that and to put some structures in place - a serious fit-and-proper owner test and some rules and regulations on spending. If you don't of course players demand the highest wages they can get, clubs can't afford not to pay, you get where we are now. FFP is at least an attempt to try to do that but it's imperfect and doesn't get at the structural weakness of 90% of clubs which is a direct result of the top 10% being allowed to cannibalise the market for the last 30 years.
For years before the EPL the "Big Six" (or four, or whatever) were openly arguing that they needed to be allowed to pay less to the grassroots and let rip on commercialism. Since the FA etc were so crap at marketing they had a point on the second bit but where we are now isn't an unintended consequence, it was inevitable. And it matters to more than a few die-hard fans in Bolton, because identity and belonging and home matter and are getting harder to find. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:57 - Aug 27 with 2311 views | CiderwithRsie |
One of the things I agree with Labour on - maybe not all the details, but at least they get that it's important. | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 13:12 - Aug 27 with 2201 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 11:50 - Aug 27 by ridethewave |
The EFL have no ability to re-wright the bankruptcy/administration laws. Football clubs are businesses and fall therefore under the same laws as others.
The only solution would be a top-down structural change of the entire football league, which just isn't going to happen. The US system has this very well run in comparison, but that'll never happen here. |
Yeah the financial entity will go bust, but they league could just say the football club is separate and carries on the name.
Yes they might need to find a new place to play as the old owners had the ground with would be an asset for the liquidation etc. | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 13:17 - Aug 27 with 2185 views | w7r |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 18:09 - Aug 26 by Northolt_Rs |
This. Football is 100% unlike any other kind of normal business. Perhaps the EFL should have put more effort into looking out for Bolton and Bury rather than hammering us over FFP - especially as numerous other clubs now take the complete p iss and simply bend the rules to avoid any FFP penalties. EFL simply isn’t fit for purpose. |
Yeah, but looking out for Bolton, Bury, other vulnerable clubs would be have required more effort and not as much fun as flexing and exercising their muscle in our direction. Delving into the backgrounds of these "owners" would require some real work and they can't be ar$ed to do that.
It's obscene - outrageous richies in the Prem squandered on agents and players, who really gives a toss about the wider football community? The ruling elite of British football are only interested in themselves, lining their pockets and those of the assorted hangers-on.
I hope Bolton and Bury come through this, terrible for their fans. |  | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 13:33 - Aug 27 with 2144 views | R_from_afar |
I pity the fans of both clubs and local communities. Bankruptcy will be a hammer blow for them.
There's a bitter irony to this when you see all the ridiculous wages and transfer fees. I just read that a club was trying to take Sanchez on loan but his £390k a week wages were the sticking point. Man alive, that is insane!
Prospective owners need to provide a "survival bond" before their takeovers are approved. The amount could be varied according to the division the club is in. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 15:29 - Aug 27 with 1978 views | colinallcars |
It's half past three, so both clubs just 90 mins away from going bust. Outrageous. |  | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 15:46 - Aug 27 with 1942 views | RANGERS4EVER |
Bury deal has collapsed. Heartbreaking for the fans | |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 15:53 - Aug 27 with 1918 views | kensalriser |
Some conflation of failed owners and the clubs going on here.
No-one is suggesting that failed owners be bailed out, least of all me. But there should be a safety net to help clubs survive venal/idiotic/incompetent owners and setting them up as community trusts is a good way to do that as it safeguards the club's survival in the short to medium term. It doesn't mean they can't return to private ownership, as Portsmouth have demonstrated.
Not everything that operates as a business is driven primarily by profit - just one example, the Royal Albert Hall is a registered charitable trust. If it wasn't, that plot would have become office/hotel/retail space decades ago. We protect certain institutions like this because they're deemed to add richness to our cultural fabric. Football clubs can belong in the same category. |  |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:19 - Aug 27 with 1866 views | Phildo |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 15:46 - Aug 27 by RANGERS4EVER |
Bury deal has collapsed. Heartbreaking for the fans |
What a horrible thing to watch. Much sympathy to all the fans of both clubs rather than the idiots who got them here. If they go they should be readmitted down a couple of divisions down for the start of next season. |  | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:29 - Aug 27 with 1835 views | BostonR |
What on earth have the EFL Board been doing for the last 5yrs? There appears to be a total lack of governance at any level in that organisation. Football administration and management at that governing body level, is shot.
How long before the Championship clubs make a move on the EFL as not being fit for purpose? |  | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:32 - Aug 27 with 1817 views | loftboy |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:19 - Aug 27 by Phildo |
What a horrible thing to watch. Much sympathy to all the fans of both clubs rather than the idiots who got them here. If they go they should be readmitted down a couple of divisions down for the start of next season. |
Wimbledon, Aldershot had to start at level 9 |  |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:38 - Aug 27 with 1796 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 15:46 - Aug 27 by RANGERS4EVER |
Bury deal has collapsed. Heartbreaking for the fans |
I'm gutted about this, they play at the end of my road. The supporters were out cleaning the stadium in case they had a game this weekend.
I went to their last game last season where they were celebrating promotion. | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:44 - Aug 27 with 1769 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 11:55 - Aug 27 by CiderwithRsie |
I get your points, but:
1. The importance of the club to the local community is more than just the business or even the football. Be honest, can anyone here name a single fact about Bury other than it's got a football club? It's symbolic of the place having an identity at all, it's the town's flag, its national anthem, its accent.
2. The point of football authorities is to recognise that and to put some structures in place - a serious fit-and-proper owner test and some rules and regulations on spending. If you don't of course players demand the highest wages they can get, clubs can't afford not to pay, you get where we are now. FFP is at least an attempt to try to do that but it's imperfect and doesn't get at the structural weakness of 90% of clubs which is a direct result of the top 10% being allowed to cannibalise the market for the last 30 years.
For years before the EPL the "Big Six" (or four, or whatever) were openly arguing that they needed to be allowed to pay less to the grassroots and let rip on commercialism. Since the FA etc were so crap at marketing they had a point on the second bit but where we are now isn't an unintended consequence, it was inevitable. And it matters to more than a few die-hard fans in Bolton, because identity and belonging and home matter and are getting harder to find. |
Don't disagree with any of that.
I think the fit and proper persons thing is so difficult though. I'm not sure legally how you can enforce it, and even if you could, what if you thought someone was improper but they were offering to save a dying club? Totally agree this is the EFL's failure as well as the owners of the club, and also completely agree that the PL has simply cut off the rest of the country.
Perhaps the FL should actually break away from the PL altogether, refuse to play in the FA Cup, refuse promotion/relegation and see what happens then. Just be a totally separate entity. | |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:45 - Aug 27 with 1768 views | CamberleyR |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:32 - Aug 27 by loftboy |
Wimbledon, Aldershot had to start at level 9 |
As did Darlington & Hereford. |  |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:47 - Aug 27 with 1753 views | loftboy |
Fûcking sky sports news have got a Bolton/Bury expulsion countdown clock. You couldn’t make that shit up. | |
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| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:49 - Aug 27 with 1749 views | QPR_John |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:44 - Aug 27 by Antti_Heinola |
Don't disagree with any of that.
I think the fit and proper persons thing is so difficult though. I'm not sure legally how you can enforce it, and even if you could, what if you thought someone was improper but they were offering to save a dying club? Totally agree this is the EFL's failure as well as the owners of the club, and also completely agree that the PL has simply cut off the rest of the country.
Perhaps the FL should actually break away from the PL altogether, refuse to play in the FA Cup, refuse promotion/relegation and see what happens then. Just be a totally separate entity. |
"refuse promotion/relegation and see what happens then"
The Premier League will think all their Christmases have come at once. This is the very thing they want | | | |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:51 - Aug 27 with 1736 views | colinallcars |
| Bolton to be liquidated this week on 16:49 - Aug 27 by QPR_John |
"refuse promotion/relegation and see what happens then"
The Premier League will think all their Christmases have come at once. This is the very thing they want |
Well, yes and no. Presumably if the EFL wanted to break away, it would be down to a vote. Can't see the likes of Leeds, Forest, Derby etc turning their hacks on the chance of promotion to the Prem. | | | |
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