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Unfair dismissal? 17:25 - Jun 7 with 7603 viewsJuzzie

Long story short, my missus has been having a long running battle with her company (large well known global company) mainly over the fact she can only do a certain shift pattern due to having to leave at a certain time (around 5pm) to pick our kids up from the child minder. They have refused to accommodate.

She's never looked to be doing less hours, just the shift pattern that starts early and ends early rather than late start>late finish.

It's been going on for ages and I've just found out she's being dismissed for stealing company property.... apple juice.

We'll speak more when she gets home but surely this is absolutely bonkers???
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Unfair dismissal? on 18:29 - Jun 7 with 5487 viewsLazyFan

Get the Union lawyers in; even if she is not a member, they will sign her up as Unions love dirt on these sorts of practices as it helps for later industrial action movements.

Company: "Be reasonable"
Union: "Like the time you were over the Apple Juice?"

This is why Unions exist due to the terrorism of management in big corps.

zzzzzzzzzz

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Unfair dismissal? on 18:46 - Jun 7 with 5428 viewsthame_hoops

As a company director, we have employed our fair share of morons over the years. One thing that I have learned, is that it is almost impossible to sack somebody nowadays (f they have been with you for more than two years)
We had an administrator who stole money from peoples wallets that were left unattended. We couldn’t prove it, she resigned because she knew she was rumbled. She then went to see a solicitor and claimed for constructive dismissal. It cost us around 5K. We sought legal advice, and they told us it would just be easier to make it go away, rather than go to court, as it would make a judge angry. We are only a small company.
Best of luck to you both mate
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Unfair dismissal? on 18:51 - Jun 7 with 5413 viewsJuzzie

Thanks both.
It turns out the apple juice was for clients. It’s a high street retailer.

But yes, it seems incredibly difficult to sack people these days so it seems a completely spurious and unreasonable reason for dismissal.
Shes a member of a union so i’ll ask her to contact them.
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Unfair dismissal? on 19:04 - Jun 7 with 5387 viewsTonto

Union advice will be essential. But pricing "constructive dismissal" is difficult, long and painful. And does she really want the job back? Maybe best to agree the most amiable divorce settlement you can and go somewhere where she shares the values of the organisation and they allow her a reasonable shift pattern.

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Unfair dismissal? on 19:10 - Jun 7 with 5359 viewsJuzzie

Unfair dismissal? on 19:04 - Jun 7 by Tonto

Union advice will be essential. But pricing "constructive dismissal" is difficult, long and painful. And does she really want the job back? Maybe best to agree the most amiable divorce settlement you can and go somewhere where she shares the values of the organisation and they allow her a reasonable shift pattern.


I said to her just now that she’s clearly not going back (11 years) and that really they should have taken her aside first and reminded her that beverage is there for clients and not staff.
The fact they went straight to dismissal is a big no-no IMO and clearly just an excuse because they wouldn’t accommodate over the shift patten due to childminder commitments.

I said don’t just walk away and leave it at that, that’s what the company wants.
Best case scenario is they offer a settlement (I said to also never accept the first amount, it will always be less than due).
Our childminder knows someone in this field so we’ll see what they say.
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Unfair dismissal? on 19:23 - Jun 7 with 5302 viewsthame_hoops

Unfair dismissal? on 19:10 - Jun 7 by Juzzie

I said to her just now that she’s clearly not going back (11 years) and that really they should have taken her aside first and reminded her that beverage is there for clients and not staff.
The fact they went straight to dismissal is a big no-no IMO and clearly just an excuse because they wouldn’t accommodate over the shift patten due to childminder commitments.

I said don’t just walk away and leave it at that, that’s what the company wants.
Best case scenario is they offer a settlement (I said to also never accept the first amount, it will always be less than due).
Our childminder knows someone in this field so we’ll see what they say.


11 years?! I would spend tomorrow morning phoning solicitors and make an appointment ASAP. They will write/email the company, will be a super quick process. It’ll Cost you £500 ish but worth it to get on the front foot.
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Unfair dismissal? on 19:35 - Jun 7 with 5277 viewsQPR_Jim

Unfair dismissal? on 19:10 - Jun 7 by Juzzie

I said to her just now that she’s clearly not going back (11 years) and that really they should have taken her aside first and reminded her that beverage is there for clients and not staff.
The fact they went straight to dismissal is a big no-no IMO and clearly just an excuse because they wouldn’t accommodate over the shift patten due to childminder commitments.

I said don’t just walk away and leave it at that, that’s what the company wants.
Best case scenario is they offer a settlement (I said to also never accept the first amount, it will always be less than due).
Our childminder knows someone in this field so we’ll see what they say.


Just speaking to my wife about it (employment solicitor) she reckons that you'll have a good case as they should have taken her through a disciplinary process before dismissal. Also may have another claim against them for refusing a reasonable request for flexible working.

As others have said, call around some solicitors and explain the situation, it sounds like you have a good case and hopefully your wife will find a better job.
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Unfair dismissal? on 20:27 - Jun 7 with 5158 viewsJuzzie

Unfair dismissal? on 19:35 - Jun 7 by QPR_Jim

Just speaking to my wife about it (employment solicitor) she reckons that you'll have a good case as they should have taken her through a disciplinary process before dismissal. Also may have another claim against them for refusing a reasonable request for flexible working.

As others have said, call around some solicitors and explain the situation, it sounds like you have a good case and hopefully your wife will find a better job.


Thanks!

She wants to take a sabbatical for a few months so guess who has to cover all the outgoings?!
At least there won’t be any childminder fees i guess, so may even out.
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Unfair dismissal? on 07:53 - Jun 8 with 4896 viewsRangersDave

It sucks being sacked etc.... lord knows i know..... how's this one for you....

a month ago, i was the happiest i'd been in a job for many a year, working for an agency, who in turn subbed me to the biggest water company in the UK.
I was a class 1 driver, delivering water to areas that had burst water mains to keep the taps flowing.
Great mates there, good laugh, and considered it the best job i'd ever had. Anyway....

Coming back into the works yard one day a month back, i started to fill the unit with ad blue, and was mid way through when the hose split by the nozzle spraying my directly into my left eye, with high pressure pigs piss.

So, although i did nothing wrong, i was suspended for being injured, then although bruised round the eye, i was rung by the boss of the company i worked for and sacked because i was off work for a week, and couldnt finish the last week of my tacho course.

No monies for the suspension, no 'dont worry we'll give you an extra week to complete the course', no job.

My work colleagues and middle management were and are stunned by it all, but neither my employer or the water company will aknowledge me. There was no PPE for me to use and in fact wasnt asked for or signed as ad blue is apparently benign.

I've writted twice to the ceo of the water company, a lady just into her job and started on 2m a year with a 3m golden hello.

My eye is ok, but the area around the socket it still a bit tender though.

No win no fee? nope, its too borderline compo wise for them.

So i'm here, screwed as i 'got sacked', no unemployment dosh because i got sacked, and royally fcuk'd.

Bloody companies screwing with decent staff, for profits. barstewards!

In short mate, you and your misses have my sympathies, totally.

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Unfair dismissal? on 07:58 - Jun 8 with 4886 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Unfair dismissal? on 18:46 - Jun 7 by thame_hoops

As a company director, we have employed our fair share of morons over the years. One thing that I have learned, is that it is almost impossible to sack somebody nowadays (f they have been with you for more than two years)
We had an administrator who stole money from peoples wallets that were left unattended. We couldn’t prove it, she resigned because she knew she was rumbled. She then went to see a solicitor and claimed for constructive dismissal. It cost us around 5K. We sought legal advice, and they told us it would just be easier to make it go away, rather than go to court, as it would make a judge angry. We are only a small company.
Best of luck to you both mate


Bullshit.

It’s incredibly easy to sack anyone. Only 7% of employment tribunals find in favour of the claimant.
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Unfair dismissal? on 08:48 - Jun 8 with 4789 viewsthame_hoops

Unfair dismissal? on 07:58 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

Bullshit.

It’s incredibly easy to sack anyone. Only 7% of employment tribunals find in favour of the claimant.


Tribunals can take up to a year to resolve.. add in the costs, stress, impact on business..speaking from experience.
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Unfair dismissal? on 08:50 - Jun 8 with 4785 viewsBluce_Ree

All companies are c*nts and they'll shit on your face if it'll save them some cash.

My mate worked for a jewelry retail company. Was their manager of the year in 2008. In 2009 he was forced out, under an NDA, because they wanted to cut some costs.

I don't care how well a job is going and how nice your boss might be, your job will f**k you over if it suits them.

ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH MARTI THE REDEEMER WHO STRENGTHENS ME.

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Unfair dismissal? on 09:05 - Jun 8 with 4748 viewsBenny_the_Ball

Unfair dismissal? on 07:53 - Jun 8 by RangersDave

It sucks being sacked etc.... lord knows i know..... how's this one for you....

a month ago, i was the happiest i'd been in a job for many a year, working for an agency, who in turn subbed me to the biggest water company in the UK.
I was a class 1 driver, delivering water to areas that had burst water mains to keep the taps flowing.
Great mates there, good laugh, and considered it the best job i'd ever had. Anyway....

Coming back into the works yard one day a month back, i started to fill the unit with ad blue, and was mid way through when the hose split by the nozzle spraying my directly into my left eye, with high pressure pigs piss.

So, although i did nothing wrong, i was suspended for being injured, then although bruised round the eye, i was rung by the boss of the company i worked for and sacked because i was off work for a week, and couldnt finish the last week of my tacho course.

No monies for the suspension, no 'dont worry we'll give you an extra week to complete the course', no job.

My work colleagues and middle management were and are stunned by it all, but neither my employer or the water company will aknowledge me. There was no PPE for me to use and in fact wasnt asked for or signed as ad blue is apparently benign.

I've writted twice to the ceo of the water company, a lady just into her job and started on 2m a year with a 3m golden hello.

My eye is ok, but the area around the socket it still a bit tender though.

No win no fee? nope, its too borderline compo wise for them.

So i'm here, screwed as i 'got sacked', no unemployment dosh because i got sacked, and royally fcuk'd.

Bloody companies screwing with decent staff, for profits. barstewards!

In short mate, you and your misses have my sympathies, totally.


Sorry to hear that, that's a tough one particularly with respect to unemployment benefit. Unfortunately your situation is different in that you were employed by the agency not the water company. As a result, writing to the CEO of the water company is unlikely to reap rewards. Are the agency unwilling to find you work elsewhere?
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Unfair dismissal? on 09:17 - Jun 8 with 4705 viewsBenny_the_Ball

Unfair dismissal? on 19:35 - Jun 7 by QPR_Jim

Just speaking to my wife about it (employment solicitor) she reckons that you'll have a good case as they should have taken her through a disciplinary process before dismissal. Also may have another claim against them for refusing a reasonable request for flexible working.

As others have said, call around some solicitors and explain the situation, it sounds like you have a good case and hopefully your wife will find a better job.


This sounds about right. I had a similar situation some years back when an ex-employer lost a key contract. To cut costs they sacked me and 3 other colleagues without a disciplinary procedure by claiming that we were all fiddling expenses. I took it to tribunal and they settled out-of-court literally days before the hearing. It's important to hang tough as my brief told me that such cases are often settled in this manner.
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Unfair dismissal? on 09:20 - Jun 8 with 4712 viewshubble

Unfair dismissal? on 07:58 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

Bullshit.

It’s incredibly easy to sack anyone. Only 7% of employment tribunals find in favour of the claimant.


You sound like someone who has never run a company, Baz. I'm not talking about big corporations, I'm talking about SMEs. Sure, the major corps can do all sorts of things to write off, bully, delay and so on; not the same if you're a small company. One difficult employee can cause no end problems and costs, as my brother, who runs his own small company, found out. For him, it was incredibly hard to sack the person, and the person in question used every trick in the book to screw him over, causing him a lot of stress and costing him a lot of money. It sounds to me like you've just got an ideological axe to grind, although your point may be valid regarding the big companies.

To Juzzie, I hope your wife gets a fair settlement, mate. Whoever they are sound like typical corporate assholes. Maybe you could use Jim's wife as your solicitor?

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Unfair dismissal? on 09:20 - Jun 8 with 4707 viewsTheChef

Unfair dismissal? on 09:17 - Jun 8 by Benny_the_Ball

This sounds about right. I had a similar situation some years back when an ex-employer lost a key contract. To cut costs they sacked me and 3 other colleagues without a disciplinary procedure by claiming that we were all fiddling expenses. I took it to tribunal and they settled out-of-court literally days before the hearing. It's important to hang tough as my brief told me that such cases are often settled in this manner.


Indeed I had a similar thing years ago - I went to the Citizens Advice Bureau who were very helpful (and free!), helped write a letter to my former employer and funnily enough they also settled before the matter went to court.

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Unfair dismissal? on 10:20 - Jun 8 with 4572 viewsBenny_the_Ball

Unfair dismissal? on 09:20 - Jun 8 by TheChef

Indeed I had a similar thing years ago - I went to the Citizens Advice Bureau who were very helpful (and free!), helped write a letter to my former employer and funnily enough they also settled before the matter went to court.


This is why Bazza's stat, though well meaning, is slightly skewed. Companies facing strong cases will ultimately be advised by legal counsel to settle out-of-court in order to save on costs and time, as well as protect their reputation (via NDAs). This leaves the weaker cases to go to tribunal, hence the low success rate for claimants.
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Unfair dismissal? on 10:41 - Jun 8 with 4554 viewsJuzzie

Unfair dismissal? on 08:50 - Jun 8 by Bluce_Ree

All companies are c*nts and they'll shit on your face if it'll save them some cash.

My mate worked for a jewelry retail company. Was their manager of the year in 2008. In 2009 he was forced out, under an NDA, because they wanted to cut some costs.

I don't care how well a job is going and how nice your boss might be, your job will f**k you over if it suits them.


Funnily enough, her (ex) company is a jewellery retail company too!

And yes, any company will fk their staff at the drop of a hat. I've seen it where I work. I can be somewhat opinionated at times and I have to remind myself to reel it in!
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Unfair dismissal? on 10:56 - Jun 8 with 4521 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Unfair dismissal? on 08:48 - Jun 8 by thame_hoops

Tribunals can take up to a year to resolve.. add in the costs, stress, impact on business..speaking from experience.


My advice, also from experience, is you’ll cut down on employee grievances if you stop calling them morons.

If you think it’s expensive for you, imagine the costs to the individual.
[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 11:02]
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Unfair dismissal? on 10:58 - Jun 8 with 4514 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Unfair dismissal? on 09:20 - Jun 8 by hubble

You sound like someone who has never run a company, Baz. I'm not talking about big corporations, I'm talking about SMEs. Sure, the major corps can do all sorts of things to write off, bully, delay and so on; not the same if you're a small company. One difficult employee can cause no end problems and costs, as my brother, who runs his own small company, found out. For him, it was incredibly hard to sack the person, and the person in question used every trick in the book to screw him over, causing him a lot of stress and costing him a lot of money. It sounds to me like you've just got an ideological axe to grind, although your point may be valid regarding the big companies.

To Juzzie, I hope your wife gets a fair settlement, mate. Whoever they are sound like typical corporate assholes. Maybe you could use Jim's wife as your solicitor?


Well I run my own company now as it happens, we have two employees so hardly Amazon granted.

We encourage TU membership and don’t call our staff morons. We seem to be doing fine so far.

Apologies for hijacking the thread Juzzie, good luck to your wife.
[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 11:41]
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Unfair dismissal? on 12:44 - Jun 8 with 4380 viewsSimonJames

Fourteen years ago, my missus got dismissed following a bad ofstead report (her previous one was "outstanding"), that was mostly out of her control, due to three years of chronic underfunding (and therefore staff shortages and no one to maintain systems).
Employment lawyer cost about £300 per hour and got her 9 months salary. Since then she has worked as a private tutor getting paid twice as much per hour and only working 3-4 hours per day. And she always has a large waiting list.

100% of people who drink water will die.

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Unfair dismissal? on 13:11 - Jun 8 with 4297 viewsjoe90

As Bazza pointed out, a very small percentage of claimants win their cases and of those that do often get a lot less money than they expected. Acas early conciliation is worthwhile in the first instance.

Regarding the issue in hand, I don't think the company have to accommodate the shift pattern if it conflicts with business needs.

Regarding the dismissal, they usually should go through and investigation and disciplinary process. If they have such a thing in their HR policy then they would be unwise to not follow their own procedure.

Juzzie, can your wife request to see the company policy?
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Unfair dismissal? on 13:39 - Jun 8 with 4249 viewsheadhoops

Hi Juzzie - as others have already said get in a good employment lawyer. had a constuctive dismissal recently, person was willing to walk away with 1 months money. A few legal letters later and it became six months money plus bonus due. Company had to cover all legal bills as well.

As is usual in life, its the big major companies who will do everything to avoid paying when they are in the wrong. Smaller companies on the other hand usually cannot afford the legal fees, fighting union reps etc and end up paying even if they are on the receiving end.

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Unfair dismissal? on 13:41 - Jun 8 with 4239 viewsMatch82

Unfair dismissal? on 07:58 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

Bullshit.

It’s incredibly easy to sack anyone. Only 7% of employment tribunals find in favour of the claimant.


I don't think that stat is making the point you want it to.

Another way of putting that sentence is that it's so hard to sack anyone and companies have to go through so many checks and assurances to ensure they are justified in doing so that when claimants try to take it to a balanced tribunal only 7% succeed.

In general I think there's a small number of people looking for shortcuts and handouts that are psstakers, which companies use to justify extreme measures. And a very large number of companies who would sell their own grandmothers to save a buck (case in point the universally accepted practice of paying long term employees what they can get away with instead of what they are worth, or would cost to replace with someone half as talented)
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Unfair dismissal? on 15:00 - Jun 8 with 4138 viewsthame_hoops

Unfair dismissal? on 10:56 - Jun 8 by BazzaInTheLoft

My advice, also from experience, is you’ll cut down on employee grievances if you stop calling them morons.

If you think it’s expensive for you, imagine the costs to the individual.
[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 11:02]


Goodness me.

EDIT- Why are you always so aggressive?
[Post edited 8 Jun 2023 15:06]
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