| Rwanda flight 21:14 - Jun 14 with 17931 views | Gwyn737 |
Looks like there’s a fair chance that it’ll take off with no passengers.
Liz Truss wants it still to fly as it will “establish the route”. |  | | |  |
| Rwanda flight on 14:16 - Jun 17 with 1184 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 12:16 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
Well no, we both agree the deportation to Rwanda is an incorrect move.
But what i am asking is would you blame Janice and Mick for crossing all those countries because they fancied living in Barbados... or would you blame the Barbados people for not wanting to take swathes of Janice and Mick types, thousands of them.
Because I bet any money you would have very little sympathy for Janice and Mick. Very few of those championing open borders would. They would be described as white, entitled gammons/karens should they complain that they couldn't get in.
Yet Petr and Dinara from Ukraine would be seen as poor, desperate people being denied an opportunity to live freely. We both know that's right, come on. Do you disagree?
Yet both situations would be exactly the same, no difference at all. [Post edited 17 Jun 2022 12:19]
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I don't think many people, if any, are arguing for open borders. Of course there has to be control of who comes in.
We are obliged, as if every free country to help folks in need. We take in very few, a processing centre in France which has been offered by France would do what it needed to vastly reduce the numbers.
Google Peter Bone MP in Parliament this week, if you wish to see out and out hatred |  | | |
| Rwanda flight on 14:23 - Jun 17 with 1170 views | onehunglow |
| Rwanda flight on 14:16 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
I don't think many people, if any, are arguing for open borders. Of course there has to be control of who comes in.
We are obliged, as if every free country to help folks in need. We take in very few, a processing centre in France which has been offered by France would do what it needed to vastly reduce the numbers.
Google Peter Bone MP in Parliament this week, if you wish to see out and out hatred |
He s every right to be angry with a name like that.
His missus would be Mrs Bone or Lady Bone.
It’s a cruel world | |
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| Rwanda flight on 15:10 - Jun 17 with 1128 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 14:16 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
I don't think many people, if any, are arguing for open borders. Of course there has to be control of who comes in.
We are obliged, as if every free country to help folks in need. We take in very few, a processing centre in France which has been offered by France would do what it needed to vastly reduce the numbers.
Google Peter Bone MP in Parliament this week, if you wish to see out and out hatred |
It’s not just a few though is it.
Ukraine has a population of 44 million…. Twice the amount of Australia.
How many do you sanction? Do you leave a number for any future wars? What if we take in our quota and then Syria falls into another war. Population of 17.5 million. Do we then take more?
Where does it end? |  |
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| Rwanda flight on 16:50 - Jun 17 with 1099 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Rwanda flight on 07:12 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
I take you back to my Janice and Mick from Manchester example.
You would have to question just how desperate they are if they flee England and pick Barbados as a destination for relocation, wanting all their benefits, money, handouts and healthcare.
I am pretty sure you would be criticizing them rather than describing them as poor and desperate Janice and Mick. Am I right?
The UK cant be the destination for people from every war on the planet. Flee into a neighboring country, certainly. But you can't just pick where you want to go, life doesn't work like that. |
Janice and Mick are loaded though. They inherited millions off Madges dead husband. | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 18:01 - Jun 17 with 1080 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 15:10 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
It’s not just a few though is it.
Ukraine has a population of 44 million…. Twice the amount of Australia.
How many do you sanction? Do you leave a number for any future wars? What if we take in our quota and then Syria falls into another war. Population of 17.5 million. Do we then take more?
Where does it end? |
When people are no longer in need. The government has devastated the nhs, the criminal justice system through lack of investment. The Ukrainian refuges will be here on a temporary basis, we need people to fill out jobs especially in the nhs. Our country should never turn its back on people who need our help.
Put yourself in their position. You flee a country, you land in France but your family is in Manchester and you speak English not French. What would you do ? You can’t claim asylum in another country, gvnt has closed those routes. They wouldn’t land in the uk first as we are an island | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 18:32 - Jun 17 with 1070 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 18:01 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
When people are no longer in need. The government has devastated the nhs, the criminal justice system through lack of investment. The Ukrainian refuges will be here on a temporary basis, we need people to fill out jobs especially in the nhs. Our country should never turn its back on people who need our help.
Put yourself in their position. You flee a country, you land in France but your family is in Manchester and you speak English not French. What would you do ? You can’t claim asylum in another country, gvnt has closed those routes. They wouldn’t land in the uk first as we are an island |
People will always be in need.
Give me a time where there hasn’t been a war somewhere.
If I was in their position I would not be picking and choosing. If I was genuinely fleeing with fear for my life and my families life, I would seek refuge in the nearest country and count my blessing I’m now safe.
I most certainly wouldn’t be traipsing across Europe to find the very best deal I can for myself. I can only take you back to my Barbados example, it would be ludicrous.
No issue with skilled migration, no issue with genuine asylum from a neighbouring country. However as we know, there is always people needing help - you can’t just keep your borders open to them all. It’s just not feasible. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 18:40 - Jun 17 with 1063 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 18:32 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
People will always be in need.
Give me a time where there hasn’t been a war somewhere.
If I was in their position I would not be picking and choosing. If I was genuinely fleeing with fear for my life and my families life, I would seek refuge in the nearest country and count my blessing I’m now safe.
I most certainly wouldn’t be traipsing across Europe to find the very best deal I can for myself. I can only take you back to my Barbados example, it would be ludicrous.
No issue with skilled migration, no issue with genuine asylum from a neighbouring country. However as we know, there is always people needing help - you can’t just keep your borders open to them all. It’s just not feasible. |
Again on that basis no one would ever come here as we’re an island.
You’re telling me that if you landed in Germany but spoke English and no German, you’d not want to come to Britain where they speak your language and your family live ?
They’re not ‘traipsing across Europe to find the best deal’, they are desperate people. | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 19:07 - Jun 17 with 1051 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 18:40 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
Again on that basis no one would ever come here as we’re an island.
You’re telling me that if you landed in Germany but spoke English and no German, you’d not want to come to Britain where they speak your language and your family live ?
They’re not ‘traipsing across Europe to find the best deal’, they are desperate people. |
But they are traipsing across Europe to find the best deal for themselves. Being desperate doesn’t mean they come to the U.K. they don’t run away and happen to
Being desperate means you go to the closest refuge, not pick and choose where you would like to go.
If their family is already located in the U.K. then that seems a fair reason to allow someone in. But a language barrier isn’t.
I have a friend who works in France and barely speaks a word. Plenty of Poles work in the U.K. that don’t speak a word of English.
I just think you are looking at it with idealistic thinking as opposed to the harsh realities of it. You can’t just be opening your borders to everyone in a country with conflict. You will essentially have open borders.
As I said, give me a time where there was no conflict anywhere in the world. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 19:29 - Jun 17 with 1047 views | Gwyn737 |
| Rwanda flight on 19:07 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
But they are traipsing across Europe to find the best deal for themselves. Being desperate doesn’t mean they come to the U.K. they don’t run away and happen to
Being desperate means you go to the closest refuge, not pick and choose where you would like to go.
If their family is already located in the U.K. then that seems a fair reason to allow someone in. But a language barrier isn’t.
I have a friend who works in France and barely speaks a word. Plenty of Poles work in the U.K. that don’t speak a word of English.
I just think you are looking at it with idealistic thinking as opposed to the harsh realities of it. You can’t just be opening your borders to everyone in a country with conflict. You will essentially have open borders.
As I said, give me a time where there was no conflict anywhere in the world. |
I think I’d want the best for my family which as SirJohn says, is often to get to family and in a country where English is spoken.
If Barbados had these things then Mick might well get in a boat and go. | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 19:41 - Jun 17 with 1041 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 19:07 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
But they are traipsing across Europe to find the best deal for themselves. Being desperate doesn’t mean they come to the U.K. they don’t run away and happen to
Being desperate means you go to the closest refuge, not pick and choose where you would like to go.
If their family is already located in the U.K. then that seems a fair reason to allow someone in. But a language barrier isn’t.
I have a friend who works in France and barely speaks a word. Plenty of Poles work in the U.K. that don’t speak a word of English.
I just think you are looking at it with idealistic thinking as opposed to the harsh realities of it. You can’t just be opening your borders to everyone in a country with conflict. You will essentially have open borders.
As I said, give me a time where there was no conflict anywhere in the world. |
As ever, we are polar opposites, which is never a bad thing. Take care | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 19:51 - Jun 17 with 1027 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Rwanda flight on 19:29 - Jun 17 by Gwyn737 |
I think I’d want the best for my family which as SirJohn says, is often to get to family and in a country where English is spoken.
If Barbados had these things then Mick might well get in a boat and go. |
Mick got seasick on the trip to Peacock Island. He’d never make it to Barbados in a boat. [Post edited 17 Jun 2022 19:53]
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| Rwanda flight on 20:29 - Jun 17 with 1010 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 19:29 - Jun 17 by Gwyn737 |
I think I’d want the best for my family which as SirJohn says, is often to get to family and in a country where English is spoken.
If Barbados had these things then Mick might well get in a boat and go. |
We all want the best for our family, doesn’t mean you can go where you want though. It’s pie in the sky stuff.
You would be one of the first to criticise our Mick for complaining he can’t get into Barbados.
Safety is what you are looking for. That is available in all non-conflict countries, you don’t cherry pick. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 21:12 - Jun 17 with 989 views | Gwyn737 |
| Rwanda flight on 20:29 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
We all want the best for our family, doesn’t mean you can go where you want though. It’s pie in the sky stuff.
You would be one of the first to criticise our Mick for complaining he can’t get into Barbados.
Safety is what you are looking for. That is available in all non-conflict countries, you don’t cherry pick. |
So the uk (being an island) would not take any?
Again, I'm not advocating open borders; just a fair and transparent system. | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 21:19 - Jun 17 with 985 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 21:12 - Jun 17 by Gwyn737 |
So the uk (being an island) would not take any?
Again, I'm not advocating open borders; just a fair and transparent system. |
And what would that look like?
What’s fair in one persons mind isn’t in another.
It doesn’t have to be a landlocked border. France would be our neighbouring country, if they were in civil war I would suggest we then have a responsibility to take some.
I don’t see what responsibility we have to take swathes of Ukrainians.
Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Slovenia, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and France all are on the path to Britain. I think it’s ludicrous. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 21:33 - Jun 17 with 979 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 21:19 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
And what would that look like?
What’s fair in one persons mind isn’t in another.
It doesn’t have to be a landlocked border. France would be our neighbouring country, if they were in civil war I would suggest we then have a responsibility to take some.
I don’t see what responsibility we have to take swathes of Ukrainians.
Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Slovenia, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and France all are on the path to Britain. I think it’s ludicrous. |
Because it’s doing the right thing to help share the burden. The Daily Mail said the same thing about taking Jews before the war.
Again it’s luck that it’s not us. | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 21:41 - Jun 17 with 967 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 21:33 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
Because it’s doing the right thing to help share the burden. The Daily Mail said the same thing about taking Jews before the war.
Again it’s luck that it’s not us. |
The right thing for who?
Who decides what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? You?
It sounds like your opinion is now being treated as the right thing, and the opposite being the wrong thing?
Yet it’s been explained why this mass influx of refugees is not a good thing for the inhabitants of the U.K.
Nothing to do with hate, nothing to do with Nazis, nothing to do with dehumanising anyone. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 22:10 - Jun 17 with 941 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 21:41 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
The right thing for who?
Who decides what is the right thing and what is the wrong thing? You?
It sounds like your opinion is now being treated as the right thing, and the opposite being the wrong thing?
Yet it’s been explained why this mass influx of refugees is not a good thing for the inhabitants of the U.K.
Nothing to do with hate, nothing to do with Nazis, nothing to do with dehumanising anyone. |
Helping desperate people is, quite a reasonable suggestion to be the right thing surely? If not what happens to them ? Not our problem ? Nothing to do with us ? | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 22:22 - Jun 17 with 939 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 22:10 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
Helping desperate people is, quite a reasonable suggestion to be the right thing surely? If not what happens to them ? Not our problem ? Nothing to do with us ? |
It depends what the after effects of that help would be.
An example.
Our ship is sinking, there is space for 8 people to survive on a life raft, any more and it may not float. You and your 3 family are on there, me and my 3 family are on there and there are 100 more people in the sea.
Inviting them onto our raft while it may feel virtuous is a disaster for our situation. If someone needs help, it’s not always helpful to give that help, especially not in the numbers being suggested.
You have read the horrendous stories on this thread from first hand accounts of people having families members dying because they can’t get medical treatment in time, the health service is already overwhelmed… you now want to add to that.
Helping one person which then harms another, isn’t really helping. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 22:35 - Jun 17 with 929 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 22:22 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
It depends what the after effects of that help would be.
An example.
Our ship is sinking, there is space for 8 people to survive on a life raft, any more and it may not float. You and your 3 family are on there, me and my 3 family are on there and there are 100 more people in the sea.
Inviting them onto our raft while it may feel virtuous is a disaster for our situation. If someone needs help, it’s not always helpful to give that help, especially not in the numbers being suggested.
You have read the horrendous stories on this thread from first hand accounts of people having families members dying because they can’t get medical treatment in time, the health service is already overwhelmed… you now want to add to that.
Helping one person which then harms another, isn’t really helping. |
You characterise it as anyone who comes here will automatically be a burden. We’ve welcomed refugees who have been doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers in their former lives. These people could pay taxes and contribute to our society.
It’s amazing how we refer to people coming in as immigrants but Brits living abroad as ‘ex pats ‘ | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 22:45 - Jun 17 with 920 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 22:35 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
You characterise it as anyone who comes here will automatically be a burden. We’ve welcomed refugees who have been doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers in their former lives. These people could pay taxes and contribute to our society.
It’s amazing how we refer to people coming in as immigrants but Brits living abroad as ‘ex pats ‘ |
I characterise it as that? You just said it was a burden and we had to share it.
Not sure that is something you should be palming onto me.
Skilled migrants I have no issue with, I’ve said that from the start.
That’s exactly what I am (never called myself an ex-pat) I’m a skilled migrant. If we are to accept people into the country then they have to benefit it, not just “may” benefit it but “will”.
If I didn’t have the skills to prove to the Aussies I would be a valuable contributor to their financial system then I wouldn’t have any hard feelings or think they hated me. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 22:54 - Jun 17 with 911 views | Sirjohnalot |
| Rwanda flight on 22:45 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
I characterise it as that? You just said it was a burden and we had to share it.
Not sure that is something you should be palming onto me.
Skilled migrants I have no issue with, I’ve said that from the start.
That’s exactly what I am (never called myself an ex-pat) I’m a skilled migrant. If we are to accept people into the country then they have to benefit it, not just “may” benefit it but “will”.
If I didn’t have the skills to prove to the Aussies I would be a valuable contributor to their financial system then I wouldn’t have any hard feelings or think they hated me. |
It’s getting late here, so I’ll leave it there. Have a great day | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 22:55 - Jun 17 with 910 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Rwanda flight on 22:54 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
It’s getting late here, so I’ll leave it there. Have a great day |
🤷â€â™‚ï¸ | |
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| Rwanda flight on 12:18 - Jun 18 with 844 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Rwanda flight on 22:35 - Jun 17 by Sirjohnalot |
You characterise it as anyone who comes here will automatically be a burden. We’ve welcomed refugees who have been doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers in their former lives. These people could pay taxes and contribute to our society.
It’s amazing how we refer to people coming in as immigrants but Brits living abroad as ‘ex pats ‘ |
I think Britains living abroad pay their own way and are not a burden on the county they live in
They are also legally living in those countries have met any entry , resident and visa requirements
Contrast that with the illegal economic migrants that have arrived in the UK via illegal methods and expected the UK to provide free accommodation, free health care etc.
I am happy for genuine asylum seekers to be given protection.
Also migrants who have applied to stay via the correct methods and work in this country are also welcome. | |
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| Rwanda flight on 12:23 - Jun 18 with 844 views | Gwyn737 |
| Rwanda flight on 12:18 - Jun 18 by felixstowe_jack |
I think Britains living abroad pay their own way and are not a burden on the county they live in
They are also legally living in those countries have met any entry , resident and visa requirements
Contrast that with the illegal economic migrants that have arrived in the UK via illegal methods and expected the UK to provide free accommodation, free health care etc.
I am happy for genuine asylum seekers to be given protection.
Also migrants who have applied to stay via the correct methods and work in this country are also welcome. |
But there are no correct methods for Afghans, for example. That’s my issue. I can’t see how people can complain when there are illegal immigrants if there’s no legal means.
If there was, we wouldn’t see the boats.
Why can it be done for Ukrainians and not others? | | | |
| Rwanda flight on 12:30 - Jun 18 with 841 views | Gwyn737 |
| Rwanda flight on 20:29 - Jun 17 by Dr_Parnassus |
We all want the best for our family, doesn’t mean you can go where you want though. It’s pie in the sky stuff.
You would be one of the first to criticise our Mick for complaining he can’t get into Barbados.
Safety is what you are looking for. That is available in all non-conflict countries, you don’t cherry pick. |
At the moment you can’t cherry pick the uk if you’re from certain countries- you have to come across the channel. There’s no control at all.
If it was hypothetically me, I’d want to do the very best for my family, I’d want to go to Australia. I have family there, I understand the culture, the school systems are similar, I understand the values. Feel free to apply this to Janice and Mick in the hypothetical.
I wouldn’t get to France and stop. This is what the channel crossers are doing.
No one is advocating open boarders but we must have systems. Then decisions on numbers and due processes can be made. | | | |
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